In Episode 5 of the Soldier Fund Podcast, Ben Derrick and Jordan discuss the unique aspects of leadership within the National Guard Special Forces community. They highlight the importance of relationship-building and the personal nature of leadership in Special Forces. The guest, a Sergeant Major with over 20 years of service, shares his journey, emphasizing the evolution of his leadership style from hands-on to strategic. He recounts pivotal combat experiences that shaped his approach, stressing the need for calm, clear communication and introspection. The conversation underscores the value of mentorship, rehearsing plans, and maintaining trust and honesty in leadership.
Ben Derrick 0:00
Music.
Welcome to the soldier fund podcast, the platform for untold stories from the National Guard Special Forces community join us as we delve into the lives of these elite warriors and the journey of our non profit dedicated to supporting their courageous mission to free the oppressed worldwide. I'm your host, Ben Derrick, let's dive in. Jordan. We've made it to Episode Five.
Unknown Speaker 0:38
Yeah, it's pretty crazy, man,
Ben Derrick 0:40
yeah, you know what's I shouldn't be surprised by it, because I really believe in what we're doing here, but, man, our listener base is picking up, and they're pretty vocal about the content that we're putting out there. Yeah,
Speaker 1 0:51
it's, I've been really surprised. I don't know why, but it's surprised at everybody's reaction and that they're actually sharing and moving along. And I'm excited that we got some leadership on here today.
Ben Derrick 1:02
Yeah, man, I just the conversation that we had with the sergeant major about leadership. I just very much appreciate and the listeners will hear this in a moment. How much you guys wrestle with calling yourself leaders.
Speaker 1 1:16
Leadership is a weird thing to begin with, so my team leader, what he used to say about it is it's really hard to define, but you know it when you see it. And I think the SAR major we have on here today did a really good job of navigating that for us.
Ben Derrick 1:33
It did. We threw him a couple difficult questions because we knew that he could handle it. And I appreciated a lot his honesty. How about you? Oh,
Speaker 1 1:40
absolutely, yeah. And I think that just is his character. That's who he is. So
Ben Derrick 1:45
that's the difference maker, it feels. And as this conversation worked itself out over the course of about 40 minutes, it really comes down to where that you use in relationship and leadership is relationship. It's nearly impossible to separate the two. Oh,
Speaker 1 2:00
absolutely, you have to care. You have to care about your job and the men. So without
Ben Derrick 2:05
further delay, here's our conversation on leadership. So thankful you're on the podcast with us today, as we start always just your rank in times down range.
Speaker 2 2:17
So I'm a sergeant major e9 times down range. Uh, add them up, maybe somewhere in the seven range. I guess it depends on, depends on where you, you know, where you draw the line of of down range, but I guess, you know combat deployments, I'll say five.
Ben Derrick 2:36
Yeah, that's, I'm not sure. Was that evidence of TBI there, or it's just been so many will
Speaker 1 2:42
the training count, you know? And how long were you away from home
Unknown Speaker 2:46
over the years? Yeah, yeah, yeah, lots,
Ben Derrick 2:49
lots of time with head off pillows. So we've brought you in today to discuss something that I certainly feel through watching you over the years. You are uniquely qualified to answer we're going to discuss, today the topic of leadership. And before we get too deep into this conversation, this is a topic that is often discussed with people inside the Special Forces community, and I think we should acknowledge has been used to sell a lot of books and a lot of conference speaking. That's not really the conversation we're going to have today, mostly if we were focusing on being a soldier, a National Guard Special Forces soldier, leadership just has a different tone and temperature inside of this organization. And also, I would say, inside of being a Green Beret, leadership just has a little bit different stripe. And I would love for our listening audience to be able to hear kind of behind the scenes, what will be really helpful for us, I think, as we get going, is what caused you to pursue being special forces, and then obviously, with your rank, you've experienced success there and advancing as a leader. What were the driving forces there?
Speaker 2 3:56
That's a good question. Yeah, been around for a while. So, you know, e9 sergeant major in special forces over 20 years of service, you can do the math on that one. I joined, you know, right out of high school, probably a little unique. I've been, I've been national guard my entire career. Never did any active duty time, though. I spent a lot of time on active duty. Just came in that time period where, you know, within my first enlistment, 911, happened, and then it's just go, go, go. You know, I originally joined as an artilleryman. And I spent, you know, I spent my first, let's see six, seven years as an artilleryman. And then 911 911 happened, went to Iraq as a, you know, OIF. Two. So right, right in the beginning. And really, as you know, sort of like glorified IED catchers, I would, I would say, but I came back from that deployment, you know, that year long deployment, Iraq, and I was like, man, there's got to be a better way. And there was a, there was a guy I knew an adjacent unit. He said, Hey, I'm going down to the this tryouts thing for the special forces. And I was like, special forces, what's that? So he's like, Oh, this is, you know, this unit down here you can try out. And I do a lot of cool stuff. I'm like, God, man, that sounds, that sounds pretty good. So I did that. But I mean, before even get into the Special Forces part, you know, the thought of being a leader. I don't think, first of all, it's funny when I say it, because it feels off like I don't think of myself as a leader. I just, I just think of myself as someone who's trying to do the mission and and, you know, be a steward of my responsibilities and help the organization and the soldiers. So being a leader was never a goal. It just kind of just kind of happened. And I think that wanting to take on more responsibility was always sort of the, you know, the culmination of wanting to understand so it was, it was the leaders who understood more things, like, I didn't, you know, I wasn't satisfied being the the E for, you know, doing a good job, or, you know, whatever, to me it was, you know, it was all about learning more. And to learn more, you had to take, take on more responsibility. So that's sort of where, sort of where my you know, leadership journey started was, was in that sort of a, you know, path to knowledge.
Ben Derrick 6:52
So it wasn't necessarily an objective. It ended up being a byproduct. That's very interesting. Yeah,
Speaker 2 7:01
I think, I think where I'm at now. I I focus on trying to help the younger, newer soldiers, you know, stay on path in their career. Because when I was going, when I was starting my career, I had zero thoughts about how to make it to the next rank or leadership or position like it just wasn't. It didn't really, you know, enter into my thought process. I just kind of went from one job to another, and I let the I let the army, determine what my path was. I mean, for me, it just, it kind of just worked out that way. And and I don't think it was really, until I made e8 that I that really applied for the next leadership position I was, I kind of, kind of was just moved up to, you know, I've held every, every enlisted rank, including Corporal. And I don't think I really sought leadership until, you know, I got past that, that team Sergeant milestone. And really, it's, it was more about, I've got all this I've got all this time. I've got all this knowledge, you know, I've got to, got to start giving that stuff back. You know,
Ben Derrick 8:21
Jordan, this represents, I think, attention that we hear often in that I didn't really join up to ascend a certain level. I joined up to be a helper. I joined up to serve. So this, this kind of dichotomy in leadership of I've got to look out for my career glide path, potentially. But that's not really why I joined up. You. You hear that story a lot.
Speaker 1 8:44
Oh yeah, absolutely. And I think that makes the best leaders honestly, because if you go in and you're completely career driven trying to get to the top, not necessarily that that's not necessarily being a leader that's looking at this as you know, maybe I'm, I'm trying to get a position or a title or finances or whatever it is. What we just heard described is about relationships and caring about the men and trying to impact others lives, which is at the heart of it, like that's, that's an SF mission at whole, you know, going around the world, trying to impact people's lives. So if you take that and narrow it down to leadership, I mean, that's a great description.
Ben Derrick 9:28
So would you guys say that you know those that have an alternate approach, those that are careerists, for lack of a better term, lose respect inside of this population?
Speaker 2 9:40
I think that we all have the stories of of that person who spent the minimum amount of time in a position, punched all the right tickets, made all the right friends. But. I never, I never hear in at the end of that story where they're like, and that guy was awesome to work for. Usually, it's usually the opposite.
Ben Derrick 10:12
So you bring up something I'm really intrigued by, and I think our listeners would be as well as a leader. Everyone has a style and with your ability to advance, with the respect that you command from the soldiers that are around you, I would love to hear more about your leadership style, what's influenced it, and how you practice that.
Speaker 2 10:32
Yeah, and, you know, I think about this, or I thought about it at least, at least a fair amount, because there's a there's a good chunk of instruction in the sergeant major's Academy where you sort of dive into this, and I thought it was one of the most difficult portions of the course, because you're describing yourself like we can all describe other people, super easy, I think. But to really sit down and look at yourself and describe yourself, I think it's much more difficult. And I also find this is difficult to really pinpoint what makes, you know, my leadership style effective or not effective? I'll reserve, I'll reserve the, you know, the right for somebody to determine if I'm effective or not. You know, outside myself. I just, I just do what I think is right, and people are going to determine whether that was good leadership or not. But I think sort of the things that shaped, shaped my style, you know, I never, I never really had that terrible leader where I was like, I'm gonna be the opposite of everything that person's, you know, stands for. Never had that fortunately, you know, I had a, had a, an SF star major. Tell me one time that the the army spends a lot of money and effort training e sixes, because when you, when you think about it, your your first squad leader, oftentimes good or bad will will put that taste in your mouth, and you'll either stay in your or you'll get it out. And they have the they have the most constant direct contact with lower enlisted soldiers of anywhere in the army. So that the army puts a lot of time into trying to teach e sixes, you know how to how to lead. So unfortunately, I think I always had, you know that good squad leader, level of leadership and that lower leadership. I think, I think the combat rotations have really served to shape my leadership over the years, and I think it, I think how I normally try to describe it is I'm a person who wants To lead out front. Will be out leading out front. I'll never ask you to do something that I either haven't done or wouldn't do. And I think that's served that served pretty well up until this point. But I also think that as you ascend and as you take on more responsibility and more organization, or, you know, a large organization, you know that that necessarily has to change and and finding, finding what that style is, has to evolve as you move up the organization, because you're not, you can't be a, you know, a brigade level leader, and think that you're gonna, you're gonna, you're gonna go out and and lead the charge, or you're gonna be, you know, first truck in the convoy. It's, you know, it's not gonna, it's not gonna happen that way anymore. So, you know, I think, like my leadership style as as started off as that sort of, you know, I would say typical, just out front. I'm going to do everything you're going to do. I'm going to do it first. And you know, if you're coming with me, you're coming with me. And I think it's, you know, evolved from there
Ben Derrick 14:31
that can be a very difficult transition as I sit and talk with you guys. Then it's actually a very distinct pivot point where your leadership is predominantly being with the men getting out there, first you're saying, and then you have to pivot, essentially, and watching you present a slide deck. Obviously you've made this pivot very well, but it becomes a lot about, for lack of a better term, being that go between between higher command and the ODE. A's right, and learning how to be in the middle there and represent the interests of both equally, that's got to be a really tough challenge.
Speaker 2 15:08
Yeah, I think, you know, in the ethnic community, a lot of weight is put on the the ability of the tactical leader, because you can, you can see it. You can, it's in your presence. You can. You can watch somebody. You can evaluate somebody. If you ask me, you know, what is the, you know, what's the group commander's leadership style? And not, not pointedly, I'm just making a broad term, any, anybody at a higher echelon of leadership, you know, what is their leadership style? It's more difficult to it's more difficult to pinpoint, because you don't get as much interaction with those people. But at the same time, like as you become that person, you need to figure out, how am I going to how am I going to still inspire down to that lowest level. Yeah, I
Ben Derrick 16:05
would assume, Jordan, you're welcome to chime in here. I would assume that your history on the team really determines how people view you, even from a distance, right? Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 16:16
I just listening to this whole thing. It kind of, for me, goes back to relationships and caring. So leadership styles, whatever that may look like, is different for guy, each guy, and how you even lead each guy, because they have different learning techniques and styles and whatnot. And really, I think the army has a definition for leadership. It's providing purpose, direction and motivation to to get a task done that that's that's their thoughts on it. But I think for us, the guys that are actually in the fight, it's caring about each other, and then as you move up with more responsibility, is okay, you know, it goes from when you're very basic soldier skills, like, I'm going to be the best at tactics, or as a medic, I'm going to be the best medic I can be because I care about the dudes. And then as a team sergeant, it's the same thing. I'm going to be the best team Sergeant I can be because I care about the men. And then moving up to Sergeant Major, you know, you're the in between guy, but as long as you're not career driven. This is, this is, I would say, probably, you know, 90% of the time, if you're not just career driven, you still have a heart for the men and the regiment as a whole. And even when we say regiment, we mean the men, like we're doing what's best for them. So what? And I think what makes a good leader is a guy who can look at each individual and say, you know, maybe I need to tear into this guy a little bit, but on this guy, it's not going to work. So I have to be flexible and moldable a little bit to get them to do it. I need them to do because I care about them. It's what's safest for them. It's what's best for them. It's what's best for the mission, all these other things. This
Ben Derrick 18:02
is what combats a little bit, I think you know, as I'm watching as a civilian from a distance, all the books that are coming out, all the podcasts that are coming out, they're these very general, generic principles that are rooted in combat, rooted in experience, being downrange, as I spend time with you guys, though, it just feels different. It does feel incredibly personal, and I don't what I don't know, and I'm eager to ask today, is, is that a Green Beret thing, or is that because I'm closer into this community? It feels like I know exactly how to leave this soldier different from that soldier. I know this soldier's family situation. I know how they are under stress, because we've been in combat deployments over and over again. Where does that come from? Is that something that's forged when you're in these high levels of stress situations? Downrange? Is that where that happens?
Speaker 2 18:54
Yeah, I think it's, I think it's a bit a bit of or a bit of both, really, like in our selection process, you're looking for guys that are are team oriented, and are able to build rapport. So they're, they have some sort of capacity to to build relationships, and some sort of, you know, emotional intelligence. And I and I think when you get to a team, it's a very it's a very small unit. So, you know, everybody knows everybody, and I think we, we put a lot of emphasis in our in our mission sets, with being those people who can go out, make friends and influence people. So this, this focus on our ability to connect with people, make friends, understand people, you know, it doesn't. It doesn't just happen outside of, you know, our our team on missions like that's all that stuff happens within the team as as well. So I think it's a thing as a combination. You're already selecting guys that are able to. To work well in a team, and, you know, put the needs of the team in improper priority. And then, and then, we're also constantly training on on being those people who can go out, make friends, influence people, and read the situation so and then, and then, in your lead, you know, your leadership schools, they just reinforce that. I think it's, it's something that comes more easily to us as a community than it. Then it may come to a conventional army leader who's more used to that sort of infantry style. Not that it's bad, but, yeah, I think it's, it's combination all the all the above.
Ben Derrick 20:43
So let's talk about quickly. I can very much appreciate that answer. It leads to more questions. As a good answer, usually does. I feel that we find who we are as leaders when shit hits the fan. And if you'd be willing, I'd love to hear an experience that you had in during your combat deployment, that perhaps your leadership had to emerge in a new way in a difficult situation.
Speaker 2 21:08
So I'll give you one, one non soft and one SOF. So one non SOF is, you know, oh, if two, I'm an I'm an e6 squad leader running convoys in in Iraq, primarily in and around Baghdad, Balad bakuba, and we had just gotten there maybe a month or two, something like that. Hadn't, hadn't, really hadn't seen anything yet. So going with convoy hit our first IED boom. Thing goes off, and fortunately, we didn't lose anybody, but it destroyed one of our vehicles. And that's where I think I first won, first realized that combats for real. So somebody's, somebody's actually trying to kill you and and two in to be a good leader in times of crisis, people are just going to look at you and they're going to look at you for the answer. And if you don't have the answer, if you don't know, like, look like you have the answer that's not gonna steal a lot of confidence in them. So, you know, it really, it really taught me how to manage people in a crisis. I mean, and then it wasn't five kilometers down the road get into another stuck convoy, waiting for them to clear and clear an IED and we start, start taking small on fire ambushed from the right side of the road out in the palm trees. And I remember now this, this is not a greatest story, but I remember the trucks behind us had. So this is a little more context. There's probably about four or five units, maybe maybe 3030, trucks. We only had three of them. We're just kind of in the middle with a bunch of other units that were going to the same place, going up to Balad. And when the when the ambush started. Everybody started firing. So you get that, you know, that Death Blossom, you know, this is early OEF to like, you know, just whatever everybody did. My guys didn't do that, of course, but everybody around us just start shooting everything. And I'm looking around and I'm and I'm, I'm seeing these farmers, you know, running, obviously running for their lives, because they're getting rounds coming their way. And the the unit behind us had thought that one of the hiluxes approaching was was an enemy Hilux, and they shot it up pretty good. Turned out not to be, turned out to be a bunch of civilians. But it was, it was that point right there where, you know, I'm coming from a unit that's not with any of these other units. They're all trying to determine what to do. And with my assistance, we got in there, and I'm like, listen, we gotta, we gotta treat these people. Pull them out, treat them. Calling the medevac. Everybody's trying to figure out what to do for the ambush we have this, this Apache doesn't have comps with the convoy. Lands on the road, opens up, open the pilot, opens up his his hatch. I go up to the helicopter is running. Of course, we have to write notes back and forth, trying to describe to him, hey, the enemy's over here. Give us cover over. This way, he takes a note, gives me a thumbs up, close, the door, takes off, goes and does his does his thing. So I mean those experience. Is there were really kind of, you know, foundational experiences, at least in my leadership journey of of how to deal with, you know that that stress of of combat and and being that leader, when everybody's sort of looking at you for, for what they're supposed to be doing
Ben Derrick 25:21
next. That's got to be an incredibly difficult thing to not allow the chaos around you to become that chaos inside of you, because, you know, so many people, both innocence and those that are in uniform, are depending on you keeping it together.
Speaker 2 25:37
Yeah, and, you know, I think that one of the one of the best things that I find to keep the team intact in those, those high stress situations, is to be the sort of the calm In the room, or be the, be the, you know, short, concise orders, stuff that's easy to follow and and very direct. I think if you meet, if you meet, a crisis in animation, with more animation, it just becomes more high stress. I think the what I've always found to get the best performance out of teams during high stress was to be the more calming demeanor in the in the room. It's, it's kind of like, can you break it down? Like, simplify the tasks? There's a million things going on right now, and if you can quickly prioritize and then issue short, concise orders and get people moving in the same direction, focusing on the same things, I think people tend to calm down.
Ben Derrick 26:56
Yeah, that's incredible, an incredibly unique skill set, though, correct? Jordan, Oh, absolutely,
Speaker 1 27:00
yeah, to stay calm through it all. And what he was just describing is probably one of my biggest fears, not that I'm a SAR major by any means, but in my mind, thinking worst case scenario and, and I think this is a Green Beret ism also is looking at it and being like, I don't want to be the guy standing there that doesn't know what to say, that doesn't know what to do, whether it's you're new on the team, you want to know your skill. If you're leading the team, you want to know how to lead. So everybody is over indulging in as much information and as much training as they possibly can be because they don't want to be the guy that says, I froze up because they just didn't know what to do. Training didn't take over. And then the next component of that, and I've done this with my teams before, is contingencies. We would run contingencies into the ground. Well, what if this happens? What if this happens? Well, we just unlocked a new fear. So we should probably, how do we prepare for that? What do we need to bring with us, or whatever? Just so that. And I think, I think the more prepared you are, and the more you've you've war gamed these scenarios in your head and tried to come up with it, the easier it is to stay calm. I mean, I could be wrong about that, but I think there's a psychological aspect to it that that prepares you for those moments. And I'm sure SAR major has done that himself. He thinks, Well, what is what if this happens? What if we do it even in conversations like, before we get on here to talk, to talk like, what if he asks this? I'm gonna need to know what to say. So I'm trying to war game this conversation even.
Ben Derrick 28:36
That's a phrase I picked up from you guys, war game. And it feels like it's just a way of life. But you know, Sergeant Major, this gets back to something you mentioned very early on in this interview, and I think it really characterizes this population. If there's something that you guys don't know, you're not going to stop until you figure it out, or somebody lets you know what's going on. The interesting thing for me look watching you guys as leaders, and why I'm so motivated to make sure that you guys have all the resources you could possibly ever need, is that you take that curiosity and you point it inward. What is it about me as a leader that I don't know and who can help give me that information? My curiosity is, is that's, is that something that is just part of the personality when you're going up to the Q Course, or you're going to that first sfre, is that just part of who you are? Or does the green braid culture just build that in you? Because it seems to be across the board. All you guys are very, very curious about what's going on internally that could either help you perform better or is causing you to underperform.
Speaker 2 29:40
Yeah, I think it's, it's one of the, one of the top qualities that I always look for in members of of any team, is, is introspection, the people who are always outward focused. I tend to always be the worst teammates. It's, it's the it's the guys that are, you know, stuff happens to them, you know, the army did this to me, or, you know, that enemy, like they just did, they just did that. And that's what screwed the whole whole thing up. Like everything is, everything is outside. The reason for everything happening is is outside of them, outside of their control, and it's happening to them. I think that the best, the best team members and hopefully the best leaders, are always the ones looking for looking internally and trying to determine what it was that they could do, could or could have done better. And I think that that serves a better focus. Nobody, nobody wants the guy that's always whining about, you know, something happening to them. You're always, you're always better served, you know, focusing internally, you know, even, even if, even if there are external forces you know, acting, acting on you, you can only control what, what you know, what you control. So, yeah, I think that the introspection is, I think, a key element that I'm not sure that we cultivate. I think it's sort of, it comes with the type of person that makes it through the selection process.
Speaker 1 31:25
I was going to say the same thing. I think it's the type of guy that even shows up is already curious about the process, and most guys are already trying to learn the process and what I need to do. And then there's also the other side that, you know, looking internally. Can I, can I make it? And I mean, that that goes over to everything. Why are we even good with other peoples of the world is we're curious about them and what's going on with them? I mean, that's, that's what makes us good at it.
Ben Derrick 31:57
Yeah, so it sounds like what we're saying here is a little bit of a both, and there's there's a natural curiosity that is, then the community embraces and develops and matures. And, you know, part of this may be a very leading question. I'm okay with that, but at your level of leadership, what do you do when you see a Green Beret that's losing his way in that not that they're a bad soldier, that they're broke off, but we all have peaks and valleys in our participation leadership. We see this happen sometimes with odas. How do you address when a soldier's lost his way with that introspection?
Speaker 2 32:33
That's that's a difficult one. I think, I think Decisions, decisions in combat are pretty straightforward. And I've never, I've never struggled with decisions in in combat either, either, either doing it works, or you do it it doesn't work. I think the hardest decisions I've ever made in my career always relate to administrative action with with soldiers, you know, dealing with the complexities of somebody's emotional state, professional conduct, just it's, it's that type of stuff That is, that is always the most difficult and to deal with the soldier. I think, you know, individualization is, is always very important. I think not beating around the bush is very important. You know, if, if I were doing something wrong, or if I was on the wrong path, I think I would appreciate more a leader that lays it out for me in the beginning and and, you know, what are the clear expectations from here? So I think it's, I think it's a tone in the beginning. I think it's a tone that I don't know that as as as soft guys, we're really good at setting in the beginning. I think we sort of sometimes take for granted that everybody's gonna gonna be awesome and 100% you know, no mistakes ever, which is definitely not the case. People make mistakes all the time. So we, we sort of skipped this idea of of clear rules and expectations up front. So you know, trying to try to be that person that that sets those expectations up front and evenly, adhering to those across the board. But if you do get someone who is outside of those expectations, I always think the best thing to do first is to be upfront and direct about it. Maybe they don't know, maybe they weren't aware. Maybe you know they're waiting for somebody to ask. I. Think, uh, late, lately, I've been kind of reading, you know, Simon cynics stuff. And he is, he is very much all about the people, the people you know, the you know, the organizations should serve the people, not, not the prophets. You know that stuff comes as as a result of of your culture and your your people. So I think you know one of his talks, you know, you have a manager and you have an employee, employees not performing, and in a typical organization that the manager would go in and yell at employee for not performing, but his, his thing is, is more along the lines of, well, well, don't go in and yell at him for not performing. He's not going to perform any better. What you really should be doing is asking him why he's not performing. What is keeping that person from performing? Because everybody on a team wants to perform. These guys are here because they they volunteer multiple times. They want to be there. So if a guy is not performing, it's generally not because he doesn't want to. There's, there's something going on that is keeping him from performing and to be able to help solve that is, and it's, it's always tough.
Ben Derrick 36:14
Seems that there's a, you know, based on that answer, I certainly can agree through observation. It seems that honesty is a hallmark of leadership inside this community. Am I right about that? Yeah,
Speaker 2 36:25
yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's all about trust. I think part of General Dempsey's Profession of Arms is trust, mission, command is knowledge, intent and trust like everything is. Everything is trust like that. The military is built on trust. I need to you know, as a leader or as a commander, you need to be able to issue your mission type orders and trust that that your soldiers are going to go out and and execute so nothing crushes trust more than than lying to your your soldiers. I had this, I had this uh exact sort of experience just recently, and I was sort of out. I was outside looking in. And it is, fortunately, it has resolved itself at this point. But as someone outside of the situation, looking in and looking at these senior leaders not being truthful with their subordinates, it just it blew my mind, because it's impossible to get back. We're always talking about, you know, restrictions and warfare and stuff like that. And, and there's a huge emphasis on on ethical conduct and everything. And rightly so, because you can be ethical for nine years out of the war, and then you do one incident, and, and now you're now, you're in that category of unethical. It's the same. It's the same with trust. You can, you can have your units trust for your entire command, and then you lie to them or deceive them one time, and it's all gone, all and you're probably unlikely to get it back.
Ben Derrick 38:24
It feels exactly like the stories I hear from the Q Course, where guys are uninvited for one seemingly very small incident after a year, a year and three months, and it's very hard for the civilian mind to wrap around man, this one thing, but it feels like that's part of the process to instill in the Green Beret. It only takes exactly like what you're describing. It only takes one incident to destroy a mission, to destroy trust on a team. That's a pretty high standard for you guys to try to rise to, especially, you know, with your career being so lengthy, over 20 years, the amount of pressure that's there, I can imagine, can be a tough weight to bear.
Speaker 2 39:05
Yeah, and, and, you know, we're not, we're not talking about mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes in in what we're really talking about is is, you know, those things that you, that you do as a leader, that really just make your soldiers unable to to trust you to act in their best interests. A lot of a lot of times, I think it manifests itself in sort of this idea that your leaders will throw you under the under the bus for something, you know, if they won't have your back, I think that's, that's the most typical, you know, places to lose it.
Ben Derrick 39:49
Well, this leads me to, unfortunately, we're running a little bit short on time today. But I've been very eager to get to this question, because if there's one thing I've learned is that you guys think. Constantly about everything right as you're looking back over career, if you know, if you could go back, and we asked this question often, if you were talking to a younger version of you, or if you were able to get that young soldier aside and give them some very solid leadership advice, what would that advice be?
Speaker 2 40:20
You know, first and foremost, be good at your job. Like, know your job, your your your piece in the puzzle. And if you don't know how your how your piece fits in, you're struin up the other pieces around you. So just to be always, always, strive to be an expert at you know, your job, like whatever that is. I also think that mentors are important. I don't think I valued finding a mentor as quickly as I as I could have, or or should have. It was only, it's really only in the last couple of years that I really found a couple mentors. And I I tell you, every time I asked them a question, something I'm stuck on and and twice with the same mentor, they've given me an answer that was opposite of what I thought they were going to give me, Wow. But I was like, You know what? I'm gonna I'm gonna take this advice, and it's, it's worked out both times. So so having, having that mentor, I think, is, is certainly invaluable. And then I think that it goes back to what we were talking about earlier, is, you know, as you're rising as a leader, those rehearsals are, are key to success in in almost any, almost any mission. I've probably been burned more times by skipping rehearsals, because, you know, we get short on time. You got to do this. You got a million other things going on. Like, Oh yeah, yeah. We all understand the plan. Yep. Got it good. Okay, we're gonna go and then never works. So, like, you know, rehearsing your plan is, is the most important thing you can do at the end to validate all of those assumptions that you've you've put into it and and it's always, it's always night and day. It's night and day with the with the missions that have gone off with, with thorough rehearsals versus the ones where you skipped them. You know, be that excellent soldier. The Army has a great path that will will take you through the leadership wickets, if you stay, if you stick around and and you know, do your obligations, having, you know, having a good mentor, and, you know, always be willing to rehearse and refine and all those plans. Awesome
Ben Derrick 43:00
well, I love to take this opportunity when we have men like you behind the microphone to say a heartfelt, deep thank you for your service to our country and your service to this organization. You are a man that is well respected inside the National Guard Green Beret community, and it's been our honor to have this conversation with you today. Thank you for all the things that you've done throughout your career, to invest in other people and to protect to work by with and through, to free the oppressed around the world.
Speaker 2 43:31
I appreciate it, guys, I really do. I feel honored to have been asked, you know, I said it when you first contacted me, like, Are you sure you got the wrong right guy? But it's, it's been fun. I think, I think sitting down and talking about this stuff, it it really pushes you, or pushes me to sort of get these thoughts, like out there, and it's really, it's really helpful. And I enjoy everything, and I really like what you guys are doing. Yeah.
Ben Derrick 44:00
Well, thanks for your time, sir. I
Unknown Speaker 44:02
appreciate it. Thank you.
Ben Derrick 44:05
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