This conversation gets underneath the surface of what draws a man into Special Forces—and what it actually takes to stay there. It moves past the mythology and into something far more grounded: the internal wiring required to operate in uncertainty, to manage yourself when no one is giving feedback, and to make decisions that don’t always end in clean outcomes. In this episode, Ben sits down with a retired National Guard Special Forces medic whose path was anything but scripted. From Ranger Regiment to 20th Group, from combat deployments to a life-altering diagnosis of multiple sclerosis, his story traces the arc from capability to limitation—and what it means to hold onto identity when circumstances change. For those in the formation, those approaching transition, or those simply trying to understand what real resilience looks like, this conversation offers something worth sitting with. It doesn’t simplify the cost of this life. But it does make clear that what is formed in it doesn’t disappear when the uniform comes off. If you want to understand the mindset behind the tab—and what remains when it’s gone—this is a conversation worth your time.
[00:00:00] Welcome to the Soldier Fund Podcast, the platform for untold stories from the National Guard Special Forces Community. Join us as we delve into the lives of these elite warriors and the journey of our nonprofit dedicated to supporting their courageous mission to free the oppressed worldwide. I'm your host, Ben Derrick.
Let's dive in.
Well, it is an incredible privilege to be able to, to talk to you today. I will, uh, call you sir for the rest of the interview so we don't overstep the boundaries. But this conversation is going to be, I think, an incredibly valuable one because of the interaction that we're having through our social media channels.
Just a strong curiosity about what it is that draws a man to this sort of [00:01:00] experience, and we have on good rapport that you're the SMI regarding being attracted to special forces moving through, and then. Post special forces, the kind of life that you are leading today, uh, with a pretty significant diagnosis.
This is gonna be a fascinating interview and I'm grateful that you're here with us today to record this. We traditionally start, uh, just with rank and times down range just to protect your identity. Sure. Uh, I retired as a sergeant First class, that's a E seven. And on paper I only have two times down range, uh, Afghanistan and Iraq.
Now on my retirement paperwork, it looks like I have two tours in Afghanistan. But what happened was I volunteered to stay with another team and. So on paper it looks like I went twice when really it was just one [00:02:00] extended tour already we've fit in this interview a pretty fascinating crease here that I think most people wouldn't understand.
Would you mind going into a little bit more detail about voluntary to stay and join you up with another ODA? Sure. Um, I always joke with people, um, uh, let me back up. I was a medic. Uh, SF is notoriously short on medics in a lot of cases. So when the team I deployed with was getting ready to, uh, break up and go home, uh, the joke was always, there was another team that needed a medic real bad, and I was a real bad medic.
So. I stayed with them. Now, they wouldn't have asked for me if that was true, but that's the joke. And it was, it was full of people that I knew anyway, so it wasn't like I was being asked to go join a bunch of [00:03:00] strangers. Um, and it was, it was a super easy decision. These were people, you know, there was a need.
I could feel that need. I was actually a little flattered and, uh, went out and all in all had a really good time with them. But, uh, I didn't realize how much time had passed. And I'm getting emails from my original team showing me like new motorcycles or whatever. We wait. Are you guys home already? Yeah, we've been home for months.
You know, when you get home, do you want to do this? Like, oh, I didn't realize how much time had gone by, but I was younger, single. I didn't have anything better to do, so I just stayed and played. [00:04:00] Well, I think this gets to the heart of, uh, uh, personality, which I want to kind of back up and start there if we can.
But the type of man that through loyalty and flattery and proficiency, is willing to stay in extended period of time in a war zone that says something about you. And, uh, so I wanna roll back and talk. What attracted you to the SF Life to Special Forces? I, I often get stories of I watched a movie, I read a book, my family was in it.
There are a lot of people out there that are fascinated about the challenge of sf uh, special on Billy Side, who never approached it. And I would just love for you to give words to what it was that drew you towards Special Forces. What was that curiosity? I am going to have to dip way back here. Um, I would've said that my experience was totally different, but more and more I'm finding out in this community, it was actually pretty [00:05:00] typical.
I did not set off to join the military. Uh, my both grandfathers had been drafted in World War ii. Uh, my father had not ever been in the military. I did not have a family tradition of it. Uh, there were things that, you know, I found a, a, you know, the attraction of adventure, whatever, but it, they were like passing moments.
Get outta high school. I went to college 'cause I thought that was what you were supposed to do. After two years I was being encouraged, you know, you've gotta pick what you want to do for the rest of your life. And I didn't know there, in the back of my mind was, oh, let's show in the military and I only intended to do it for four years.
You know, by the end of four years I'll know what I want to do. And at the time, [00:06:00] I really didn't know that there was such a thing as National Guard sf. Most people don't. Exactly. Uh, there wasn't a pathway directly to sf. So initially I was an Army ranger, a first Ranger battalion in Savannah. So I did that for four years and got out 'cause that's what I was going to do.
I did not go in until I was about 20 years old and for a directionalist, uh, guy with the not the greatest self-discipline, starting off in Ranger regimen actually worked out for me because I kind of needed that, uh, that structure. Still about a year and a half, you know, I'd gone back to school and much to my surprise, after a year and half, almost two years, I still didn't know what I wanted to do.[00:07:00]
So I was looking at, well, I'll get in the National Guard and just to, to have a little bit of what I had. And it is that, uh, that feeling, that camaraderie. And I was going to Mississippi State. I wrote a weekly column back then for the school newspaper, and I was turning a column into my editor and on the TV saw the second plane hit on nine 11.
And so I called the National Guard Recruiter. Uh, at the time I'd just been thinking, well, I'll just do standard National Guard stuff, but I called him back and let a look. I know it's about to happen and I, I don't think [00:08:00] I'm cut out for like a, a Mississippi National Guard fill artillery. And he said, well, you're already ranger qualified.
You're already airborne qualified. There is a battalion of special forces here in Mississippi. And once again, like, why did I, how did I not know this? But, um, that was the pathway that got me into 20th group and I was still in fairly good shape. So when the selection, I don't know, within six months, and in some ways I was better prepared physically, pretty well prepared.
Um, there were just going back a little bit for selection. There's no, no personal direction. Everybody refers to the cadre's robots. [00:09:00] They will, there will be something on board. They don't speak to you. They don't encourage you, they don't discourage you. There will be something on the board one morning, you know, uh, formation, zero, 600 tennis shoes, no watches.
And you know, you know, okay, I am going for a run. But I would be out there going in formation. And there are people that look like action figures. I mean just physical stunt, including some that I had known from Ranger Regimen. And okay, today's event is gonna be a run. It'll be for a set distance, it'll be for a set time.
Follow the cones, do your best. That was it. And these guys, one, they had their watches on 'cause they cannot conceive of doing things without a standard. And they would be like, wait, how [00:10:00] far is it? Do your best. What time do I need to be finished? Do your best. And they're not being corrected, but somebody's writing down, Hey, this guy couldn't follow directions.
So for the first time it was very non-structured. I mean, to the point of you sort of have to look after yourself, uh, manage your own time, manage expectations. And I think I had made up my mind early on, you know, there's gonna be so many runs, so many rock marches, I'm not even going to try to be first.
Definitely don't wanna be last either. I'm gonna be on time. Mm-hmm. And the guys that are, you know, lemme try to set a record. They were breaking themselves off. So there were people at the end of selection that passed [00:11:00] every single physical event. And still weren't selected because you can't follow directions, you can't manage your done.
Um, I, a great example, my class did not do team events. We had, uh, what was called a trek. So getting back of a pickup truck and we got driven out into the national forest and you know, you get out, here's where you are on the map, here's your grid, here's where you go next. And it was, uh, you can't really call it Land F 'cause you were allowed to use dirt roads, whatever.
But you hit points along the way and it was, I don't know, I was probably all told with the points about 40 miles from camp, not straight line distance, but be back. [00:12:00] In camp on this day at this hour, 36 hours. Totally deal. But it was, you are not gonna walk for 36 hours straight, can you? You know, you're not allowed to be with anybody, so can you manage your time to get back?
And there were still people there, you know, the, the studs. You know, what's the record? Just do your best, you know? Well, I'm gonna try to do it in 12 hours. Yeah. Knock yourself out, dude. You're giving me 36 hours. I'm gonna wander in camp at 35 30. You know, there is no need. This is not the time to try to finish on a broken foot.
This leads me to the question, and I asked this of many of the guests on this podcast. The selection process is designed to expose [00:13:00] perhaps more than it's designed to break. Uh, the things that you are equipped with during selection, you probably showed up there with this, is just refining those things.
I'd love you for you to talk about your, your personal experience in selection. Like what did this strip away in in you, what did it expose in you? What did it show that you had, that you didn't, you didn't know that you had perhaps some positive things. Uh, but, but my main curiosity is the changes internally.
'cause I know how you guys are as gbs, you're not gonna announce, here's how I bettered myself. Right. Um, what are the things inside of this process of becoming a GB that changed internally for you that ended up being very important for your career Glide path? There was the self-management. Um, obviously I passed, but I definitely did not have those skills or defined and there was a, yeah, [00:14:00] like I said at the beginning, they're not looking for the fastest, strongest, whatever.
They're looking for a certain personality and thankfully I had it. Um, but there is a confidence, uh, self-confidence that probably borders on cockiness and it's, it's almost you, you come out of it and know to pass, you have to go in with a little bit of self-confident, but you come out of it with a, yes, I can do this, I can do this.
Um. And that's something I've said to people all along, you know, how bad is selection? It's not that bad. And there's almost like, it, it's not even being humble, it's, I did it. Anybody can do it. And it's, I know that's not true. I [00:15:00] mean, otherwise everybody would, um, anybody with that mindset can, and going in, I wasn't sure I had it to the point that multiple times going through right until the very end when they announced who was selected, who wasn't, I wasn't sure.
And in many ways I did not think I'd passed. And then come to find out there's, you know, I hate to take the extreme position, but I would venture guess that most people, if not all people. Finished selection. Not a hundred percent sure that they passed. I didn't, I personally have never run into anyone that finished up and was like, yeah, yeah, I got this.
The position of the cadre is, cadre is very interesting to me because I've been around a couple of these events, uh, ses, SREs. It's very disturbing to certain per uh, personality types to not be getting [00:16:00] that kind of feedback. Uh, you're doing great. You're doing terribly. Um, the, one of the favorite phrases that I hear of recent days is Max effort.
You know, put the watches away, right. What's the time hack, what's the distance max effort? Um, that, that sort of, uh, gate is very disturbing for a lot of people. Did, did you witness that as well? That, that that one change along really broke people off? Oh yeah. Well that was, that, um, that mindset of the physical specimens that did not have that.
It can be odd to think of somebody strong, fast, all that without the required self-confidence. And maybe it's a different kind of confidence. Um, maybe it takes a different kind of confidence to give yourself feedback, um, to critique yourself [00:17:00] or even praise yourself, you know? And there are some people, unless that's coming from an external source, they can't do it.
And you have to if you didn't already have it. And I didn't. I had a little bit, but I didn't have it all. The way among many of the things, selection is about finding that internal source. And at the end of it, you either can or you cannot. And if you can't, there's a good chance you're not getting selected.
Yeah. So this, this begs another question for me because, and there'll be those that are listening to this episode that may differ with this opinion, but it's mine so I can have it. I believe that 18 delta is the harder path. It's the slightly longer path. I believe it's a little more difficult with different information you're trying to, to accumulate.
At what point did you decide that you were capable as the guy that would come in at 35 hours and 30 minutes that you were capable of becoming an 18 delta? [00:18:00] Here is a, the main may not have been the best example, but that was my, my thing with time management, and actually it might not be a horrible example because being medic is a lot of time management.
Um, you could argue that what sets, um, NSF trauma medics apart from, you know, like a civilian paramedic is the time if, uh, when I was teaching on the range, uh, even what we would consider remote, I'm gonna have you at a regular US hospital on inside of an hour overseas. Dude, it might be two hours, it might be two days.
So it was all about time management. Um, I got the medic bug starting IVs and Range Regimen know just far from a medic as you can get. And then that year and a half that I was out of [00:19:00] the military, I was a veterinary technician, so. You know, I knew I liked that. Um, and it wasn't a, uh, I don't really know how to explain it.
It's not the egotistical, you know, I've got, I've got the power, I've got life in my hands. It was, it was something else. Uh, if you have an ego, you can't really be a medic. I mean, that's not fair. You have to have some, but I found that out the hard way early on. Thankfully in the Q course, uh, one of my instructor, my favorite instructor, I don't really think there is a such thing as a photographic memory.
Not by the book definition or movie definition, but I have a very visual memory. Um, if I see something, it's there. Um, and until I choose to discard it, [00:20:00] so. In college in the Q course, classmates, you know, frow and shook their head because during an anatomy exam, I can close my eyes or look at a blank spot on the wall and I can see the page from the book with the human skeleton in the labels.
So I didn't have to study in the same way. So in the trauma lanes for testing purposes, there's an algorithm, you know, I do this, the patient does this, you know, uh, of like a feedback loop, why that memorized in the first day. And this instructor noticed that. And he would start, you know, this is pretend, but he would start killing off my patients no matter what I did.
And at one point I had done everything by the book. And my patient [00:21:00] still died and I like threw something in the tent, said a very bad word, and stormed out. And he grabbed me and this guy had been a medic and you know, Delta force everything else. And he's like, you're not God. You can do everything right.
You know everything that we know to be right and you're gonna lose. And if you can't handle that, if your ego cannot handle that, you need to find something else to do. And that was a turning point. And I could do that. And that was, like I said, thankfully I figured that out in the course. Like, Hey, maybe I should do radios, you know, but yes, I can't do this.
And you have to realize I'm gonna lose. Um, in fact, uh, that trip to Afghanistan, I [00:22:00] think if you, you totaled everything up. I'm not gonna say I had a ton of patients or anything like that, but trauma wise, I lost 40% of patients. You know, so I'm coming home, like success rate after IED or whatever. I've only got a 60% success rate.
That's a D. Mm-hmm. But that's a, you have to not rationalize it, but take your ego outta the equation. And, but there are 60% of trauma, casualty, combat, trauma casualties that are alive because I knew what I was doing and again, had the confidence in a roundabout way, the confidence to try and the confidence to make hard decisions.
Um. I think one of my first mass casualties [00:23:00] coming outta the course. Yeah. We'd had the, you know, instructive part of it about like triaging. And I remember wondering at the time, will I ever know how to do that? You know, this is a field exercise, what am I gonna know, what I'm do or how to do that in real life?
And I remember the first mass casualty, um, as I went back through the, uh, the casualties, looked at the first guy and just like in a millisecond, kind of computed how far he'd been thrown by the blast and realized I've got a backpack full of made gear. I don't have enough. Even if there was trauma center around the corner, I'm not gonna save him and walked right past him to somebody I could.
And that was a, it was one of those moments that, uh, I don't wanna say autopilot, [00:24:00] but will I know what I'm doing? Oh, holy crap. I do actually, you know, 'cause I made the, the Todd decision. No matter what I do, I'm not gonna win that one. So, move on. What, what is your, I feel the question a lot. What is your fascination with this culture?
Uh, and you know, just as a moment of vulnerability here on this podcast, as an executive of a nonprofit that's built specifically to help National Guard Special Forces, the, the question I failed most is, are you just doing this because you wish that you had been one? Uh, and I, I would take radical offense to that question 'cause the mission is much bigger than that.
But it's the thing that you just rolled out for me that is so important for us to disseminate across our culture, across our society, especially as Americans. The ability to adapt as you've already, uh, articulated so well today. Uh, but also the ability to [00:25:00] do difficult things like that. And to know that you have the capacity to do those difficult things.
I find inside the GB community, there's this, this story replicates across everyone that I've ever met that there was an initial understanding of capacity. And because of the experiences that you guys have been through, both in training and also in theater, there's a new understanding of capacity and the ability to understand I may have a, a 40% fail rate, but that means I've got a 60% success rate that, that, that way to view particular circumstances.
I believe our entire culture could benefit from it. And part of what gets me so frustrated is that a lot of these lessons are captured. And trapped inside of the community. So the fact that you're, you're sharing them with us today, potentially affecting young men that are listening to these episodes to jump into that way of life.
Certainly there are risks of this way of life that we're gonna [00:26:00] get to in, in just a moment, but that, that capsule that you just popped open right there of this was a thing that I learned and this is a way that this particular instructor mentored me over how to frame failure. It sounds like the way you're talking about it now has made a lifelong impact.
Has, and uh, you know, you kind of capitalized on something you just said. You know, it may be our culture, maybe our education system, whatever, you know, if you're not making a a hundred percent on the test, then you know you have failed a couple of the questions or whatever. And real life doesn't all work that way.
And on the medical side of things, it absolutely does not even work that way. Um, we are moral beings and when you expose yourself to traumatic events, that just goes [00:27:00] up, gotta laugh or, uh, you know, make light of a 60% success rate. This is combat, combat trauma. This is people getting blown up shot, whatever, 60%.
Not bad at all. Um, but there is that Hollywood, you know, growing up, watching movies, whatever, you know, almost like the hero is not supposed to want to do this. Um, you know, I'm doing this for the good of country and friends and whatnot, but I don't think you can be successful off. I should probably personalize that I could not have been successful if I wasn't doing it a little bit for myself.
That may tie back into the self-motivation, self critiquing ability. Being able [00:28:00] to realize and be comfortable with takes a little doing of, you know, what I am thinking right now would be selfish if a movie Hero said that out loud, but that's a movie, and this is real life. An example of that, and I know I'm, I'm dancing all over the place.
I'm afraid of heights. I, I'm not phobic. I mean, obviously, but I did not care for parachuting. I did it because it was the gateway to everything I wanted to do. Wanna be a ranger. Yeah. Guess what? You're gonna have to go and pass it first. If you already work and you go to selection and you pass, that's the next thing you're gonna have to do.
I almost took a, like a practical approach to it. I was actually telling one of my kids the other [00:29:00] night, it's not just a, you know, okay, I am gonna guess I'm gonna, dude that's afraid. I mean, it is. But, um, I was afraid putting on my parachute, getting in the plane, riding up there. Once I was out the door, all that fear was gone.
And there's that, you know, practical side of me that's probably, okay, I'm out the door. It's either gonna open or it's not. It's completely outta my hands. And there was on the medic side of things, but, you know, SF in general. Yeah, there's almost a getting out the door part, you know, am I gonna do this afraid?
Am I gonna have all kinds of stuff to, Nope, I'm out the door now, it's done. If I ever had any second thoughts, that was the time before I went out the door. So, you know, I, of [00:30:00] course, you know, going through the course I had, uh, moments of, ugh, I'm cut out for this. But I also had the other half of me, or three quarters of me going, you am not, not an arrogant thing.
Well, maybe a little bit, but, uh, I think confidence really isn't the right word. I always, I'll tell people and I think, uh, it's probably like a Clint Eastwood line. A man's got nose limitations. It's true. And it that, again, going backwards, that's part of selection. What are your limitation? Do you go in here with the idea already that I can do this or, you know, better come out of it thinking that way.
But, uh, somewhere I think I passed because I knew my limitations and never even tried to exceed them. [00:31:00] It's a very interesting take on someone who, from a civilian perspective, has expanded what we would call limitations into something that, that most of us don't understand. Uh, I I, I layer over some things that I've just learned in my own life about health being a rigorous commitment to reality.
And I mentioned that on this podcast before, that you guys have an exceptional, uh, base of skill, of understanding what reality actually is and not spending a lot of time participating in solution sets that are complete fantasy. Um, not just because the lives are at risk, but mission is at risk, is very critical for mission success for everyone involved in this situation, to have a rigorous commitment to reality.
And in fact, the times that I see Greenbury argue the most, um, there are two times I see greenbury argue the most. One is over contingency plans. 'cause you guys are just contingency whores and there's never a bottom to [00:32:00] contingency plans. The other is, uh, when there's someone in the group that is not committing to reality, that is not possible.
You would think that it is possible, but it actually is not possible. And we need to commit to what is actually possible. In approaching this problem and the way that you're talking about it, really, really exposes that and I think leads us into another critical part of this interview. Before we get there, I'd like to stop though and just ask, uh, if, if you'll allow an emotional based question.
Uh, you mentioned at the start of this interview that you're retired out now. Uh, that part of you hung up the green soon is the way that we talk about it. You guys talk about it. Uh, thinking about it now, just today in this moment, uh, what does that tab represent? Or maybe more ru mentory, what does that tab mean to you?
Now, sitting there today, speaking of contingency plans, there's a hole with no bottom. Um, it has meant [00:33:00] different things over the years. Um, I don't know that we covered this right at the beginning. I was medically retired. Now, I did not cut my career short in half. I was mental click retired just short of 20 years of active duty.
So, you know, on that hand, I didn't cut a career short. I didn't just barely scratch the surface and cut it short. Uh, it is still not the way I intended to end things. And at the beginning of the retirement process, after I was diagnosed with, uh, multiple sclerosis, there was almost that moment where I should just tear off this SF tab, this Ranger tab and give them back.
You know, I have completely failed. I, like I said, that's after 20 years. And [00:34:00] that was replaced pretty quickly by, no, I didn't, you know, I'm here because of those things. Um, I started experiencing symptoms before, uh, well before my last deployment. I mean, deployed with a noticeable limb, you know, at the early stages of it.
And it was if you had held up the disability scale and it's what they use to measure things at the time, I would've been at the point that would've retired most people from office jobs. And it was that tab or that, the mindset that that tab represents, they kept me going. And it was the, the knowing your limitations.
Yes, I can, I can do [00:35:00] this on my hand and knees if I have to. Is it the best for everybody? Well, you know, you have to draw the line somewhere. But I can finish this because I've already tested myself and I'm wearing on my sleeve a sign. The physical manifestation of I have, I've been weighed, measured, and no, I have not been pound wanting.
I was deeper than I'm meant for it to be. No, I think it's really well spoken and it leads me, and we've kind of been circling around this as, as we've been talking today, the idea of reality and of limitations, uh, in my work in the Human Performance and wellness program, this is a conversation I have behind closed doors a lot.
So I'm looking to bring this out very publicly so that the men of the formation can listen to this during their windshield time and find a point of commonality with you, sir, in this part of your story in your life [00:36:00] that you realize, although I'm physically capable. I'm less capable. Something is wrong. I don't really want to talk about it.
I don't want it to interrupt my job. I want to be there for my team. I want to be there for the battalion, but I know that there's a limitation that's hidden beneath the surface. I just don't know what to do with that. If you could jump back and maybe talk about what I would term that crisis, I think that would be very helpful for me of our listeners.
Well, a couple of years ago, well, 10 years ago, I might have balked at the term crisis is the correct word to describe, because at the beginning, uh, before I even had a diagnosis, okay, something is bad wrong, and there's almost that, am I just getting older? Am I losing a step? Uh, [00:37:00] but either way, I'm, I'm letting people down.
Yeah, I am. I'm not that guy that's gonna pick you up and throw you over my shoulder, but I am, I'm dropping the ball here. And right after, it was probably a year after diagnosis, I went into a period of depression. And it is not that I didn't know that existed, I just didn't think it would ever happen to me.
Um, and some of that was that feeling of failure, uh, not just for myself, but for others as well. And once again, I want to become, uh, hopefully I have, I want to become the people that helped me. Then, um, right after I got diagnosed, I was, uh, working at desk, job [00:38:00] at battalion headquarters. And I told my boss a major at the time what was going on, and you know, that I'd been diagnosed with depression, been put on some medication, and this guy, I'd been on his team in Afghanistan, you know, we'd known each other forever.
And he just looked at me and was like, okay, you're getting help. That is the absolute right thing to do. But if you ever hide something from like this, from me again, we'll go out in that bar back parking lot, I'm gonna beat your ass. And that was exactly what I needed at the time. I didn't need sympathy or, you know, the stroll silent, or even worse, the, well suck it up, you know?
That's what I needed. And I mean, no one even looked for me. Uh, looked at me crossways. [00:39:00] And going on. Uh, the people I've maintained touch with over the years, and this has been one of my bylines, they accommodate my disability, but they still treat me just like me. And that made all the difference. Um, I think in my little text chain with the, you know, like the five or six guys that I, I still maintain strongest bond with.
You know, my wife will see something, it's like, oh my God, I can't believe you guys talk to each other like this. You know, you're in, you're in your early fifties, you're still making mama jokes, you know, you're just dogging each other. It was like, it would hurt my feelings. I mean, to the point of throwing me back into depression if they ever tried to handle me with kid gloves.
I don't remember the exact circumstances, but there was like a, a [00:40:00] gate, you know, Hey, let's go back there and shoot, you know, well, who's got the key to the, the rage? Oh, you know, we don't have, well just climb the fence. What about me? What does throw you over? Like, oh, please don't, but, you know, but they, they would, I mean, they would figure out a way to get me over the fence.
Might not be the way I wanted to go, but they would because, uh, and not just, uh, leave no boat behind. But, um, that kind of mindset, you know, we get, you can't walk, but we're not gonna treat you any different than we always have. You know, we'll carry you, but then you're still you. That definitely snapped me out of it because I, or out of any semblance of depression, and we're not gonna pretend that's all gone.
Yes, there's plenty of days I wake up and. You know, oh man, you know, this sucks. I should be out, you [00:41:00] know, at the range with my children or going camping or something. Yeah, of course you're gonna have some depression over what you can't do or what you feel like you should be able to, but it is what it is and keeps coming back to that.
Um, being able to self-critique, being able to self-motivate. I'm looking at it, you know, okay, I'm depressed over this, but I'm supposed to be, and not having that mindset of, oh, there's something horribly wrong with me, that I feel bad about, something that I should feel bad about. Not to deviate too far off, but I saw that a lot long before mass.
I think a lot of preventable mental [00:42:00] health problems, um, including some PTSD cases were because there was this huge clash, this conflict between movies, video games, books, you know, what, how guys thought things were supposed to go versus how they really did like, oh, you know, I'm gonna get in this fight in Afghanistan, you know, well, all the cowboy movies I saw growing up we're gonna face each other down fair.
And I'm not gonna draw until he does and you know, hi noon, we're gonna do this all orderly. And real life doesn't really work out that way. And there was a clash, you know? What do you mean it's not gonna be fair every time? It's not. That's why it's called War, not, I know you saw like a really cool black and white movie, but that is not how things go.
I'm guilty of letting people believe what they wanted to [00:43:00] in some cases. Um, my parents, I think some of the older, like World War ii, Korea generation and my mother had expressed some concern and one of the older men at their church back home was like, oh, you don't have to worry about him. He's a medic.
You know, uh, bad guys don't shoot at medics. Like, you know, you just keep believing what that, but uh, yeah, I wish some of them would get that memo. 'cause they 100% do. The medics that I know have, uh, almost all of them have been injured in combat in some way. Uh, so yeah, I mean the, the cities, the belief systems that we have, that we exist underneath can be.
Uh, I think what you're pointing out today can either be empower you or debilitating depending on, on which lane you choose. The way you describe it though leads me to ask this question. Uh, there a diagnosis. [00:44:00] There are things that it changes in a man and there are things that it doesn't change in a man.
Uh, if that's a fair statement, uh, I would love for you to be able to, for our listeners, to delineate between those two things. I mean, a diagnosis of MS certainly changes a man, but there's certain ways that it doesn't change a man, as you're pointing out that you wouldn't want someone to treat you as your diagnosis.
And I think that is a general fear across the formation, whether it be traumatic brain injury, uh, depression, anxiety. Uh, uh, of Twan, Achilles, whatever the diagnosis is. If there's anything that would eventually lead to taking a knee in some way, there's a lot of fear around that because the, the idea is it's going to cause me to lose my edge, or it's going to cause the community to lose belief and trust in me.
So I'd just like to, as we're kind of driving towards the end of this today, to talk about in your personal experience with the diagnosis that I would call dramatic, [00:45:00] uh, life altering, uh, for the long haul. There are things that, it sounds like it's changed in you and things that it hasn't. Could you maybe talk about those two lists?
Well, that's actually gonna be easier than I would've thought because I do a weekly column for multiple SC news. And this week's column, which just came out today, was on the difference between identity and personality. My identity had to change. Whether I want to identify someone in a wheelchair or not, it doesn't really matter.
I'm in a wheelchair. That identity did not or had to change just like my identity had to change from high school, early college years to Army Ranger. Totally different identity. It has to change, it will change for everybody. And I'm not a psychologist. This has been off Myer's opinion. I had a [00:46:00] lot of conflict and you know, it may have been part of what led to depression at the beginning because I also thought my personality had to change.
And there is a huge difference between identity and personality and as intelligent as I would love to think I am, I did not know that at the beginning and I was resisting. A change in personality that I thought had done, okay, well, you know, spurs are hung up. Now I just sit back and, you know, slowly wither away and you don't have to.
I thought, um, identity and personality were the same. And by resisting having personality change, that meant that if my identity [00:47:00] changed, then I had failed at that. And what I found and what I wish someone that outlined for me at the beginning is our personality does not change. It doesn't have to, the two are related.
I mean, one kind of drives the other, but um, that goes back to the guys accommodating disability. But still treating me like me, I wouldn't have it any other way. I doubt I could survive it any other way. Coming to terms with that, understanding that difference was a huge step for me and something that a, I wish someone had said at the beginning, can't swear that I would've listened, but I wish somebody had told me that.
And that was kind of the driving force behind writing that column this week. [00:48:00] Alright, I wish someone had told me that. So, you know, I'm doing a disservice to everybody by not saying it. So let's get down to some definitions if we can, because you've, uh, I'm just completely intrigued by this conversation. I think it, it may actually deserve another conversation in the near future if you're willing to do that.
Uh, but I'd like to get down to definitions that we associate or words that we associate with the greenbury community, strength, discipline, service, uh, those things. I would imagine, and I'm asking this question 'cause I don't know, those things still mark your life in some way. Is, would you say that this, these words and the definitions you have of these words have been vital for you to navigate your new reality?
Extremely vital. Um, and my definition of them has changed over the years, and I don't [00:49:00] mean like multiple uh, times, but, um, my concept of what it means to serve are is a little different if, if you are stuck in loop of that service. Always has to be completely selfless. If you are, are so conflicted and uncomfortable with the idea of doing anything for yourself, that's not the same thing.
It can be service, you can be happy doing service, selfless service or you know, whatever your concept of that is. Does not have to be sad service. I genuinely enjoyed what I did. Um, did I, does that mean I celebrated and took delight in every single action? Yeah, probably not. Um, I doubt the guy that picks up the [00:50:00] trash on Fridays delights if something horrible spills out on him.
But he knows that's a possibility. He still does his job and he would be doing that if he didn't enjoy it just a little bit. And there is that residual. Conflict, and it may be like a total Western culture thing, American culture thing, where I'm gonna go to war, but I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna like this at all.
I'm gonna be a green beret, but reluctantly, I know I shouldn't like this. Well, if you don't, you're the wrong business. And if you, if you're just in it for the like, or for the, well, you're not in it for the money, but if you were, you'd be a mercenary or you know, some of it, it was almost a, even if I didn't believe in the [00:51:00] overarching cause of this, I believe in the 12 guys I'm with and I would do just about anything for you guys.
Uh, and if you'll allow me to deviate again, that's one of the green braid things. The ranger thing. I had a great time. That was the perfect place to be for the first four years. But that is very much a don't ask questions. I tell you to jump. You jump. Green bets tend to bring a, but why energy? You know, I will follow you anywhere if you explain to me and convince me this is where we should go.
You know, I'll follow you in the gates of hell, but you're gonna have to, to explain why I should. Um, and that was [00:52:00] always a, well it's like you said the contingency thing. Uh, if you left guys alone, they'd never go out on a mission. They would sit there to what if things for months at a time. Um, at some point you have to say, okay, four plans, primary, alternate, contingency, emergency, stop.
You know, you're gonna have to just act on a fly. And I, I ran into that conflict with other services, notably, and I'm probably exaggerating a little bit, but, uh, I was a month with just two other guys. Uh, we're replacing a SEAL team, so it was like a month before the rest of the team showed up, and I got to go out on a couple missions with the seals.
And their planning philosophy is totally different, um, to the point of, you know, [00:53:00] what about that? You know, where's, where's the helicopter gonna land when we're done with this? Oh, in the same place. Okay, but what if it can't? Oh, well, we'll pick another one. Well, you know, let's, let's go ahead and decide that and go, and let's pick a third one just in case the second one doesn't work out.
Uh, I think that was, uh, that's one of the, the other stories you raising my hand in the middle of what has it. Ben, I think you left our part. What part did I leave out the park where I don't get killed? What, you know, their philosophy was, all right, helicopter's gonna land, the door's gonna open. You run over there and you kick ass.
Let's be a little more specific about going in the front door. You know, what if we can't, what if it's blocked? What, you know? Oh, we just go, you know, uh, clockwise around the building looking for another breach [00:54:00] point. Okay. We have great pictures of the whole building. What we just go ahead and say. That window, you know, or whatever.
And if that doesn't work out, then the next window, let's hunt just seat of our pants at here. But, uh, philosophies of different groups and everybody has their purpose. What do we do best? We plan And more and more, I'm looking around in my little amateur psychology way, like, wait a minute, 90% of the people I was in group with probably a little bit on the spectrum.
Uh, don't do that, you know, of course I'm perfectly fine. And like, wait a minute. If the guy on your right and left are both on the spectrum and they're your good friends, I got bad news for you, but, uh, well, I [00:55:00] appreciate that you're bringing up the idea not only of adaptability, but also of pace of the commitment to reality.
And I can, I can see as we're having this conversation, these are all things that currently overlay your life and the situation that you're in. And I would just like to give you an opportunity to, if you can give some assurance to those that are listening that are either pursuing this as an identity or are approaching that 20 year letter, or initiating the med board process as, as g wat, uh, becomes a thing that's closed down or closing down.
Who knows where we are in our, our current war cycle based on current events. Uh, but there are those that, um, would need encouragement, I would think. That the things that were formed in them, uh, the things that impacted them, the ways that they exercised themself as a grain beret [00:56:00] will not come to an end, as you said, when the spurs are hung up, that they will have a continued impact in their life with their kids, with their friendships.
Uh, I mean, you're talking about it very naturally as if it's a foregone conclusion, but I speak with many great berets currently in service that don't believe that yet. No, and you're right. I am speaking of it like it's foregone conclusion when I was the one struggling right there at the end because, you know, I can say, oh, well it didn't go quite the way I wanted it to.
Everybody can say that diagnosed with a chronic disease or not. This is not exactly the way I thought it was gonna go and. For all our planning, all our multiple contingencies. For some reason, when it's time to hang up spurs, we're surprised by it. [00:57:00] Like, almost like, wait a minute, I didn't even have the primary plan, much less a contingency him or emergency or whatnot.
Um, and I, I made light guy's not getting the, um, chronic disease thing at the beginning. I mean, I gotta apologize to, uh, by a guy that lost both legs and IED. He's still in the hospital of Walter Reed. Oh man. I heard you were diagnosed with Ms. I'm so sorry for you thinking No, you don't get to be sorry for me.
I. But to him, a devastating combat injury makes sense. I mean, that's, that's the life we were in. You know, you've got a disease that everybody else can get too, you know, that doesn't make any sense. I'm really sorry for you. And [00:58:00] that's about disease. But in the same way, people tend to treat retirement that way with a voluntary, involuntary, you know, medical, whatever the case may be.
When it comes, we seem more of a surprised and confused by it. And I would not recommend my way, 'cause it took a couple years to kind of come to, to terms with it. And, uh, my circumstances may not be everybody else's, but everybody's a little confused and we don't. One of the ways we fail each other and ourselves is there's not a, a preparation.
Um, and again, I know I'm deviating, but I had just come outta the Q course, get to my first team, and the team sergeant said, what are your long-term goals? Well, at some point, you know, maybe I'll be done with [00:59:00] this, or I'd like to go to PA school or, you know, medical school, something. Okay. What are you doing right now to make that happen?
Well, that thing I just got here, you know, I'll, I'll worry about that in, you know, 10 years or so. Okay. 10 years is gonna be here. Before you know it, what are you doing right now working toward that goal? And you know, that kind of set with me. Well, the same thing is about retirement, um, to hanging up the spurs.
What are you doing? I just got here. What are you doing right now to get ready for that? And I, over and over again, I run people that are not prepared. And I'm not gonna claim that I was, I was not. But even on the medic, uh, medical side of it, I had access to, uh, everyone's [01:00:00] records. And you would not believe, well, you probably would.
How many times? I mean, it's a week before they're signing their final papers. Oh, man. Can you help me find, uh, records? I will, but it's too late down to I want all this documented. Well, it's three days before you sign the paperwork. There are parts of this that, you know, you're 18 delta. I cannot document for you.
You know, you need an x-ray, you need this, I can get you set on the path. But that ain't happening in the next 24 hours. And we cheat ourselves, um, personally and each other by not coming to terms with the Spurs are going to be hung up. Same, uh, someday. You know, [01:01:00] uh, I'm not making light of this. I'm not trying to be philosophical.
We're not going to all die with our boots on. No. What is your plan for what's next? 'cause what's next is coming. I don't know what, what next will be for you, but it's going to happen again. I know I, I ramble and tell too many stories, but a, a guy I kinda looked up to two was. A successful lawyer and they saw, you know, him studying one evening after office hours.
What are you doing on studying for the mcat? What, you know? Yeah, I'm gonna go to medical school. I'm gonna be a podiatrist. Okay. You know, uh, you're gonna be 40 next year. What are you doing next year? I'm gonna be 40. Either way. I'll either be 40 [01:02:00] in a doctor or I won't be. And that was something that kind of sat with me.
I wish it set a little stronger, but uh, at a certain point, planned, unplanned, whatever you are going to be retired, you will have hung the spurs up. Probably nobody is a hundred percent ready, but you will either have a plan ready to enact or you will not. Either way it's happening. So boos, you'd have a, a plan.
Nobody said you had to be happy about it. And that's another one of those conflicts I'm supposed to be, you know, I'm supposed to not like what I'm doing. I'm supposed to not like, you know, being retired. Okay, that one may be true. Um, but you're gonna be a lot less unhappy if you accepted that that's coming, whether you [01:03:00] like it or not.
And I think that is advice that, uh, should be heard more and I think would prepare as I'm constantly coming back to gentlemen like you, the men that have done these things that, that you have done to then spread those lessons across our culture to rescue, uh, discipline and service and strength. And I would go so far as to say masculinity.
In our society. Uh, so I, I'd like to wrap up. I know I'm, I've taken up a lot of your time today, so thank you for committing to this. Uh, I'd like to wrap up with, with this question, these last set of questions here. If you could pour a bourbon and sit down with Ben pre-selection, and you could have a pretty serious conversation and download some things to the younger version of yourself, what would those things be?
What would that conversation go like? Wow. Uh, [01:04:00] so many things I would tell him, and probably so many things he would ignore. Um, one of the things, both Rangers and sf, you know, what's your plan for this? Well, I hope it's No, no, I hope it's not a course of action sometimes and maybe not in the military. Yes, I get that.
But the rest of your life it can be. So
probably when I was most depressed it was because I wasn't seeing much hope or there was hope. But I had, you know, that internalized philosophy of, okay, we'll ignore that. You know, this is what it is. And one of the main things I would like to go back and tell myself is, [01:05:00] it's okay to hope.
I'm not gonna claim that you should ever base your life on that. You know, I'm gonna base this whole next year on what I hope might happen. But one of the main things I would tell myself, okay, it's okay to hope. And that may be from chronic disease standpoint. Um, I have no idea what the future holds medically or, uh, disability wise, but if I had zero hope, uh, this would be a, a whole different conversation.
You know, I really would be medicating myself out of like a deep depression. So that's the main thing. Um, I went in with very open eyes between Airborne School Ranger selection, uh, ranger school [01:06:00] and Special Forces selection. Bought the time I made it onto a team and deployed. There wasn't a whole lot I wasn't expecting.
Um, so that's, I wasn't caught off guard. Um, I was a Green Beret medic. I knew that I was gonna see someone hurt. At some point, you know, if you, if you get outta your career as a greenbury medic, you've never seen anybody hurt something. You either lived a charmed life or you hit in a closet or something.
Um, so I'd already made peace with that. Now, something I would go back and tell myself is, Hey, you think you made peace with it? Nobody ever makes peace with it all the way, because until you actually experience it, you haven't experienced it. But I [01:07:00] guess along with that, I would tell that guy, it's okay to know what you don't know.
Instead of this, I got it and I know everything. No, you don't. And you better get comfortable with the idea that you don't know everything right off the bat. And maybe, uh, teaching a little bit between tours kind of taught me that, you know, the worst students you could have are the ones that thought they knew everything already.
I won't say the best ones were the ones that didn't know anything and didn't know, and knew they didn't know everything. But definitely the worst ones were the ones that man didn't know everything but thought they did horribly arrogant confidence that they really did know everything. Mm-hmm. But yeah, I would tell myself, you know, you may, you may know that in other people, but you don't know everything either.[01:08:00]
And it, success in this build kind of depends on knowing what you don't know and being okay with that. 'cause there's a way out of it. I mean, you ask, you do you learn and you never stop learning. I'm 50 years old, retired, and I mean, there's not today go, goes by that I'll learn something new. Even about myself.
I don't know everything about me. I know most, I know the important parts I guess, but, uh, no, I don't, I don't know everything and I would tell a younger version of myself it's okay to not know everything. It's even more okay. If you'll be willing to admit that to yourself, to others. Um, it's gonna make things so much easier.
Well, it's uh, very well [01:09:00] spoken and I wanna say before we hit the record button here and stop recording that, I believe, and I want you to hear that you are truly a great American for your service to our country, for your commitment to the 60% of lives that you saved. For the impact that you've made for your time in the uniform, for the way you continue to serve our country and people who are struggling with the chronic disease and diagnosis.
I'm very grateful as a civilian for the place that you took on the timeline to stand on the wall, to free the oppressed, to be a good team member. And, uh, I cannot thank you enough. And I know that, that this thank you will probably fall short, but I consider it my duty and honor to be able to say that to you today.
Thank you for your service. Thank you for saying that because one of the things you come out of this [01:10:00] with is knowing when it was sincere and when it wasn't, when it was a knee jerk. Thank you for your service. You know, somebody in a parking lot says to you, you know the difference between sincerity and.
That, uh, I said that because I'm supposed to, and thank you for meaning it.
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