In this episode of The Soldier Fund Podcast, Ben Derrick sits down with Jordan Jones for a candid response to the Netflix documentary In Waves and War and the conversation it has sparked inside the Special Operations community. Together, they explore why the film resonates so deeply with operators—and why awareness alone is not enough. Drawing from lived experience, the conversation exposes the hidden costs of repeated deployments, combat exposure, and the long transition between war and home. Jordan speaks openly about identity loss, family strain, unresolved trauma, and the internal conflicts many operators carry long after service. The episode challenges civilian assumptions about what “coming home” actually looks like and highlights how linear narratives fail to capture the reality of post-service life. The discussion also addresses the growing attention around psychedelic-assisted therapies, including ibogaine. While acknowledging their potential, Ben and Jordan caution against viewing them as standalone solutions, emphasizing the need for continued care, community, and sustainable lifestyle change. Ultimately, this episode calls for a more comprehensive approach to soldier wellness—one that moves beyond symptom management and toward long-term resilience, purpose, and support. It’s an invitation for soldiers to know they’re not alone, and for civilians to engage with deeper understanding and responsibility.
[00:00:00] Welcome to the Soldier Fund Podcast, the platform for untold stories from the National Guard Special Forces community. Join us as we delve into the lives of these elite warriors and the journey of our nonprofit. Dedicated to supporting their courageous mission to free the oppressed worldwide. I'm your host, Ben Derek.
Let's dive in.
Well, Jordan, this is gonna be, I would say probably a tough episode, but one that you and I talking off mic felt was very necessary to record. Yeah, it's a pretty hot topic right now. Um, I mean, we were just in the capitol earlier this week and it's, it's the buzz. Up there with all the political figures [00:01:00] and organizations throughout the state, even universities getting involved, looking at how to implement what we're gonna be talking about.
Yeah, the messaging, it's, you know, the way the world operates because something hits Netflix. Everybody knows about it, right? That's true. Yeah. There's been a, a big push behind it, and that's not anything I'm upset about. Really. It means that the people who are putting the messaging out there really care about what they're trying to message, and it's led to a lot of conversation.
I think the reason it intersects with our world is you and I have been working for years to try to bring attention to these sorts of things. So getting right into the topic we we're talking about in Waves and War, the Netflix flick documentary, uh, headed up by actually. A former Navy Seal, uh, who has had some time in tv, believe it or not, he was on a store, uh, show for the History Channel a couple years ago called The Selection.
Yeah. Uh, so he's, I don't know, just he overlaps, I think that California connection gets in front. Yeah. Maybe so. Front some people or just being a Navy Seal. [00:02:00] Yeah. That works. So they have pretty high optics, um, but they launch out with us in waves and war. And just in case our, uh, some of our listening audience isn't familiar with it, I'd love for you to give just a brief wave top description of what this documentary is about.
Yeah, so Waves of War is following, I think three or four Navy seals and from their combat experience to relationship experiences and the weight that all of that. Eventually plays on you, the toll that it brings, and then searching for answers, looking for ways to rehabilitate yourself, and generally, as a last ditch effort, guys and gals are starting to look at.
Uh, psychedelics, whether that's ketamine, psilocybin, or in this case ibogaine. So that's, that's the, you know, wave tops [00:03:00] mm-hmm. Of what the documentary goes over. It kind of follows these guys through their story, their treatment, and then what life kind of looked like after. I feel like that's, uh, why this hits so hard is, and uniquely there's film of these guys like going through buds and, you know, 'cause it's the Navy, I guess, you know, we're documenting everything and you can see what these guys are like in the beginning and there's pictures of them having drinks together and you, I don't want to term it innocence, that's probably a bad word, but you can just see how fresh they are.
Yeah. At the beginning of training. And then they do these snap cuts over to current day, like, man, this guy. Almost doesn't even look like the same human being. There's, there's obviously been a toll that's taken place between what we're bouncing back and forth here and then listening to the stories of the spouses, which that's something on this podcast I wish we could do more, uh, is bringing spouses on because there's, I wanna say that side, but it's actually not a [00:04:00] separate side.
It's the same story. Uh, those are some powerful moments in this film. It just. I, as I've talked to people, as they've brought it up to me, there's, there's, uh, an emotional response to this documentary that's a lot different than, oh, I just have new information about Iboga. Yeah. I think it's because the guys were so honest and raw, um, they were vulnerable inside the documentary, and that's, that's not something that you see very often, especially from your personal life.
Perspective, like maybe things have been raw in the past and, and, and open about a mission or combat operations or whatever it is. But for guys especially of this caliber to get out there and be vulnerable with what they were dealing with and what their family life looked like and the losses they had and everything about 'em, like that's, that's fairly new.
Yeah. There's guys that we've worked with for years, man, that would never. I mean, it's taken us years for those conversations to happen in private. [00:05:00] Yeah. Uh, much less for them to happen in public. So, and I, and I think you're right. I mean, these guys are at, were at the top of their game. Something I wanna pause and talk about that the film rolls out that I think most people wouldn't understand is that these guys entered in, much like in your career, entered in right at the beginning of G Watt.
Mm-hmm. And rolled through. Just the intensity of the initial part of those, you know, what ended up lasting two decades and is continuing. But the, the intensity in the beginning was, was taking a real toll on these guys, and they didn't know that they were signing up for GY, but that's what they got. Yeah.
Yeah. And I, I don't think, you know, it's like you said, you start out bright eyed and bushy tailed and war sounds like an adventure. And it is, and there are aspects of it that are a lot of fun. But the going to war and coming home and then going to war and coming home, and I think they talk about it in the documentary a little bit, and I know I've talked about it with, uh, [00:06:00] Tyler Grace, um, that.
You end up never really being in either location. You're like when you're in combat. You wanna be home and then when you're home you feel like you have unfinished business or if the team is just happens to still be back over there, you wanna be back over there so you're not fully present in either world and you find yourself like trapped in this, I don't know, purgatory for lack of better terms.
Mm-hmm. You're like in between the two worlds all the time. It seemed like the way the film presents it though is that, and I think I've seen this to be true, the preference becomes combat instead of the home front. Yeah, I I, yeah, I would agree with that. It's because you're tactically proficient, you're confident in that world, you're good at that job, and if you feel like you have unfinished business there, it's really easy to face.
You know, those enemies there when you come home and you, you [00:07:00] haven't spent much time being a father or being a husband, it's really difficult to, to do that. Mm-hmm. Like, you don't feel as confident, you don't feel, you feel like actually you're the problem when you come home. Over there. You're the answer.
Yeah. Yeah. That's, man, that's a great way to put that. And we've talked about these things a little bit on the podcast before, just trying to draw attention to what I would say is this problem set. Uh, but the way that this documentary presents it, and you're looking at this guy that's, that's come home from the theater and he's got a little kid in his arms at a restaurant.
Yeah. Whoa. I, I've never thought about it that way. And these guys are being so honest, which I, I would say, I know these guys are never gonna hear this, but man, how proud I am of these men for pushing this out, this part of this conversation out because of the freedom that alone is going to offer people, like, I don't know what to do with this child.
I didn't know what to do with this child, and I've been treating this child the same way I was. Treated as a child by [00:08:00] my dad, and I didn't even see those things overlapping the layers of complexity. Here is something that, and we're gonna get to this later in the episode, I don't think a psychedelic alone is gonna fix any of these things.
Uh, but the fact that these men are turning to that psychedelic because the life situation gets so desperate, which is not a word that's. That operators use. Operators, don't use the word, I'm desperate. I'm overwhelmed. I mean, it's like trying to say you quit. It's just not, it's not something you say or do at all.
Yeah. Those things are, those sort of things are off the table. That language is off the table, so, so what do you do instead? I think one of the most powerful moments in the documentary. His, where Capone's wife is talking about walking in and he's watching films from training. He's got his sidearm there on the table and he tells her to get away with some expletives.
I mean, it was kind of his, his moment of desperation. Mm-hmm. Then he's sitting there and I think this guy's a really, really unique stripe to be honest with [00:09:00] you, but he's sitting there reading this letter that he's written to the Navy about the things that are actually going on with him and. The Navy's response to all of these guys was to make them, as you've termed it, just walkin pharmacies.
We're gonna give you something to fix your sleep. We're gonna give you something to fix your concentration, something to fix your depression, something to fix your anxiety. Mm-hmm. Something to fix the pain that's going on in your lower back from, uh, exposure to blast. And, but none of this stuff is really gonna get to the heart of the problem.
So what I'd like to do in, in terms of this film is talk about basically the hidden cost from your perspective. Oof. Okay. Yeah. So I, I know this is a difficult question, but what I mean by hidden cost is the things that specific, specifically I'm thinking about now, the civilians that are tuning in. Mm-hmm.
Um, uh, the guys that are inside the formation are gonna be like. Yeah. I mean, it's, that's the job. That's how you guys term it. But the civilians that are coming behind the [00:10:00] effort, they just, there's no way for them to, to wrap their mind around without someone instructing them. What is the hidden cost of being between these two theaters and, uh, not feeling proficient in one, being drawn back to the other?
There's just so many different layers that this film exposes. I'd love to get. You know, from your perspective, what would be important to highlight here for the civilian base Man, I think, um, what it does to you, um, and, and granted we all sign up for it. We all wanted to be there, but it does, it does take a physical toll so you end up with, you know, injuries along the way.
Those injuries impact sleep, like that's a toll. Um. The emotional load if you've lost guys or you know, or just seen guys that, you know, were injured severely or whatever that's playing in the background. I, I would say that most [00:11:00] guys that I've talked to, at least in my experience, um. It doesn't haunt them generally, like, um, killing bad guys, like, killing bad guys doesn't haunt guys.
For the most part, I'd say that it, it's the things that they couldn't do. They couldn't go get that guy that they know is bad, um, or they didn't do enough. Whatever those kind of things weigh in the back of your mind. Um, and then as you s. Get towards the, later in your career, you start thinking about all the family time missed, you know, birthdays, anniversaries, Christmases, Thanksgivings, first Steps, first words, um, you name it, man.
Mm-hmm. All the first, you miss all of that stuff. Um, it, that stuff kind of starts weighing on you. Could I have been a better dad? Could I have been a better. Husband, um, you start believing that you probably could have, maybe you should have had a little more balance in there. And then I think the biggest one [00:12:00] is identity in, in my opinion.
Um, you start believing that who, who you are is a green beret. Or a Navy Seal, I am that. And when that starts going away or you start realizing you're coming to the end of that, who are you when it's gone? Like you guys generally end up feeling really lost. Like what? I don't know what I want to be when I grow up now like I thought I did, but that's over.
And it does. It doesn't last forever. So I mean, they have this multiple layers from physical injuries to. Um, emotional things and a lot of that, some of that, even, man, we, I didn't even say this. Some of that you show up with, like, you were taught to be a certain way, to be tough, to not show emotion, to not talk about emotion, to not, um, not be weak.
And then when you start having those feelings, that starts causing [00:13:00] internal conflict also, because you're like, I'm not supposed to be weak. I'm not supposed to be scared, but everyone's scared when you're getting shot at like, or an ID goes off or a rocket rockets are coming in or whatever. Like you get scared and so you have this internal, um, conflict going on that's like, am I a coward?
Am am I a piece of crap? Like, am I, should I really be here or am am I, am I an asset or am I not a liability kind of thing. Um, so yeah, I don't, I hope that answers the question that, that you posed as far as like all the things that I. I think guys deal with, um, as a result of, of choosing that career path, especially inside of special operations.
Mm-hmm. No idea. It does answer the question because, you know, listening to you with civilian ears, I know how I thought about it before I got to know you guys. Um, and this, this documentary of this film was informative. It wasn't necessarily eyeopening because [00:14:00] I've been operating inside this community for o over three years now.
Uh, but civilians think this way. Oh man, you're getting deployed. I hope you stay safe. I hope you get back. And then when you get back it's like, man, you made it. Congratulations. It's very linear, right? Yeah. Uh, there's not a lot of overlap because civilians are just operating day to day. We talk about it all the time, like, I'm going to pick up my mobile order at Chick-fil-A, and that hasn't changed, but a lot has changed for you guys in your life experience.
The, the problems that you see, the evil that you see, the evil that you interrupt, like that's running in the background. I think this was one of the most powerful messages of the film, and that's running in the background. When you're sitting out in the backyard on a laptop and your kids are playing on the playground, everything looks normal.
But the messages that are flying around in, in the back of, uh, G B's mind or mm-hmm. You know, a soldier's mind, like, man, you're replaying that day where you wish you could have done more. Yeah. And it doesn't even have to be that man. As you're talking, like I was, I was [00:15:00] sitting here trying to think, I don't know that there's a single day that goes by that I don't think about something.
Mm-hmm. Over there. Mm-hmm. It doesn't, it doesn't matter if, if it was good or bad. It, it is not always bad thoughts. It's, it's just every day I think about that part of my life. Yeah. And, uh. I mean, it was, it's just impactful. I don't think there, there's a old Native American saying that's like wherever you go and do war, a piece of your soul stays there.
Like it's got you forever. It's forever in your mind. It doesn't matter how many battles you do, each little battle or each rotation. For us, if you wanna look at it in a modern times, each one grabs a piece of you and you forever remember it. It's, it's with you. Mm. That, that feels very true in watching you guys navigate life and highlights such a huge difference and leave it to the Native Americans who, who lived that way, right?
Yeah. Yeah. Like they were, they were fighting on soil and understood that. [00:16:00] And, uh, you know, and I, I'll say that you guys would never say this 'cause you wouldn't be this, this rude, um, but I'll say it as a, as a civilian, I'm soft in that way. Meaning I, I haven't had that experience. Don't. Quite understand that, and then you guys have to kind of push through this, what we call fanboy.
It's like, oh man, I, I wish I could have done that. Or what if I could have done that? And we're all kind of enamored with the, the nomenclature, the icons, the tradition, like all those things are just so huge for us. And I think it blocks us from being able to see, quite frankly, there is a toll for this way of life.
And. It's an honorable toll that, that's what's activated me towards this population is there's so many people that are doing things just call, calling difficulty into their life. Like, Hey, you just shouldn't have done that. Right? Yeah. Your's perspective on this is, no, this is what we signed up for. We wouldn't change it.
We're proud to have done it. Uh, but it's, it's cost. Does some things, and I think the, the [00:17:00] problem that we're facing now is we're not providing solutions for those natural effects of what happens to a man when he drops into the global war on terror, and then is doing things overseas to try to interrupt evil in the world.
Mm-hmm. And also to advance good. It's not just one sided as, as you said, you've got the brotherhood, the comradery, the fact that you've been through difficult things together, all those. Things are amazing. But one of the points in this film that I did actually pause is one of the guys says this is in the, at the end of the day, this is just a jacket.
Yeah. And I've heard you use very similar language. Mm-hmm. Like eventually I'm gonna put this uniform up on a hanger for the last time. I'm not gonna pull it back down. And who am I? Then I feel like these are the questions that we need to start answering because my. Position in this is that you guys are the elite men, and I'm using that very particularly, not [00:18:00] soldiers.
You're the elite men in our society and your way of life, your way of viewing life, the things that you've done. We don't need that to get lost because we're not supporting you guys the way that we should be, and that means helping those internal, invisible wounds of war heal in a way that is.
Satisfactory for you guys, which leads us to the fact that so many of you that were participating in GY feel that out of placeness going on that identity crisis, that identity struggle. I know as you and I have talked, that your faith has been a huge part of helping you navigate through that and, uh, that is actually not uncommon inside of special forces that men of faith are using their faith to heal in particular ways.
Yeah. But what does it say about, um. This population that are, um, hardened warriors that are saying, yeah, I'll hop a plane to Mexico, go on a 12 hour trip where I'm gonna hear chainsaws in my ears, you know, [00:19:00] and sit cross-legged at the beach if it means I can get through this. I mean, this should just highlight to us this is a real problem.
Yeah, it's a real problem. Um. And a lot of guys are silently dealing with it because like I said earlier, there's this internal struggle of I'm supposed to be the hero. I'm supposed to be tough. I'm, I'm a Green Beret, or I'm a Navy Seal. Or I'm an Army ranger, like you name it. Yeah, pj. That, that identity like takes over and it's like I, I'm not supposed to be this weak.
And then you end up with imposter syndrome. They're like, I'm the one that slipped through the cracks. Yeah. Like, I shouldn't be here. Right. Should have stopped this selection. Right. Right. They shouldn't have never found me. Yeah. But all along, uh, you know, because it's it, you're being silent about it or they're all being silent about it.
Um, you feel alone in it. And, you know, that's, that's something I really appreciate about this documentary is if there's a veteran out there and he watches it. You can relate. You can [00:20:00] relate to a lot of their stories, a lot of their emotions, a lot of how they feel or how they grew up. All, all of that stuff, and culminating an event that the team is gone.
I don't know what's next. I'm tired of feeling this way. I'm tired of feeling lost and not knowing how to get ahead. Um, I'm tired of drinking every night. I'm tired of feeling terrible. I'm tired. You know, I've tried hormone replacement there. I've tried all these things and none of it's working. And the guy gets to the point that's like, I.
You know, several of 'em almost lost their families and they're like, something's gotta change. And Iboga seems to be the answer. It seems to be like a reset. If I go do this, then it's going to unlock. All of this. And I don't know what they thought initially. I don't know what I think. 'cause I've never done it myself.
Now I have had the opportunity to speak to several guys who have done it. Really? Um, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I, I don't even know that we talked about that. No, we had Let's do [00:21:00] it on mic. Yeah, we can. What's your feedback there? What's their thing? So last actually, just. Last week I was helping with a Warrior hunt for another nonprofit.
Mm-hmm. And I end up sitting in the deer stand with a former seventh group guy. And we're, you know, you know how special operations guys are, they like, feel each other out. Yeah. Like where they've been and what they've been doing and all the things. And, and he finds out I'm a medic and what I'm doing now with Holos.
And then, you know, he says, man, um, what do you think about psychedelics? I said, dude, I, you know, I don't know. I've not done 'em. I know there's a lot of promising things there and everybody swears it's, it's really good. I, I know what my thoughts are, but what are yours? Uh, without divulging too much. That, that, that's the most Green Beret answer Two Green Berets trying to have a conversation.
Right. Well, he just outright, he does. He just like flips the table at that point and he's like, man, yeah, I did it. He's like, I actually, um, the Waves of War documentary, he's like the [00:22:00] nonprofit that runs that. I signed up and I go and I do the thing. I was like, no joke. Wow. How was that? And he was like, absolutely horrible.
This is what he said. He was like, dude, it was terrible. I, I hoped I would never do it again. But he was like. It's undeniable that it works. It works. And I was like, man, that's awesome. And since then he had another teammate of his that was, you know, struggling going through the same thing after the career and all.
And um, he basically just like in the documentary, uh, one of the guys, he said, you know, if you'll go, I'll go with you so you don't have to go alone. And so they take the flight back down there again and he goes through it again with his buddy. And same results with him at like. Reset him. Wow. Um, how I would explain it as a medic a couple different ways.
One is if you're skiing down a ski slope. Okay. Okay. And you just keep taking the same path over and [00:23:00] over. And again, the trenches get deeper and deeper. Mm-hmm. IGA is the fresh coat of powder. It's that fresh snow over the ski hill. So now you have the opportunity to get out of those ruts. And ski your own path and create a new trail.
Mm-hmm. Right. Um, however, with that, I think there, even though you get that fresh coat, if you go back to the same lifestyle, you go back to the same area. You don't create, uh, new habits, new rituals, new whatever you wanna call it. There is the tendency to get back in those tracks again. And while me and this guy were talking, he's like, man, uh, he's like, it almost happened to me exactly what you're saying.
He said, I, I went home. I went right back to the same lifestyle, around the same people, around the same stuff. And um, he said, I almost found myself getting right back into that same. Pattern of life again. But I was able to catch it because the tracks weren't too deep [00:24:00] yet. And he says, I was able to get out and start creating new healthy lifestyles.
Um, the way it was described to me by a therapist that was going through psychedelic training was basically you have these, um. Synapsis or neuropathways, we'll call it neuropathways, that every time you think a thought, let's just say it's a negative self-talk type thought of like, I'm a piece of crap.
Mm-hmm. And I, I don't like myself, I don't even know what I'm gonna do now I, I've lost my fa all these things. Right? All you're doing is putting rebar into those, those pathways, and you're making 'em stronger and stronger and stronger when you do a micro dose or even, um. Whether that's ketamine, psilocybin, um.
You kind of take those synapsis apart, you break those pathways apart and gently shake them. And then when they settle, you have like what we would call in the military, uh, tactical [00:25:00] pause. Mm-hmm. You've got this break in there so that now you can realign those pathways and create new habits. Um. And I don't know that they talked about that a whole, whole lot in the documentary.
Like not really, but they didn't really talk it, but they showed it to you that these guys are now doing, like some of 'em are exploring their faith that they had walked away from. Yep. The ones were incorporating like, uh, things like meditation and coal plunge and sauna and all these new therapeutic things.
Yeah. To keep them healthy after the fact. Like talk therapy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Came back. But they're right. They're being, uh, honest in a new way. Yeah. 'cause they've discovered new things to be honest about. That's right. Yeah. I think, I think, man, what I, the reason I think it's so beneficial is in our population.
Guys don't want to talk to therapists or counselors. They just don't. Um, well, most of them are absolute garbage at dealing with this population. Yeah. Let's be honest. They're not [00:26:00] trained. They're trained in the, in the exact opposite way to deal with this population. I mean, I, I've been through a lot of that training and it's absolute horse shit for what this population actually needs.
Yeah. And these guys have been trained to not talk, if they don't wanna talk, like they know how to like, get around it. They can, they can talk around the subject. 60 minutes. That's easy. Got it. We can make it through this and you're not doing anything to me. Deal. Mm-hmm. Yep. Um, so, um, I'll give myself as an example.
You know, my marriage was in shambles. I was coming off an ODA and I start going to counseling. It took me three years. Man three years ago and talking to a, a trained professional counselor that had similar experiences mm-hmm. For me to actually get to where, um, I was at a healthy place again. He's a good one.
Like Yeah, he's great. Like he knows, he knows the lingo, he knows the population. Yep. And I trusted him like real quick too. He gained my trust out the gate and I still just 36 months. [00:27:00] 36 months later, man. So what I think IGA does is it takes 36 months and you're gonna see it in 12 hours. Like there's no hiding it.
There's no running from it. It's raw, it's in your face. This is what it sounds like to me. Mm-hmm. From the documentary and from talking to my friend in the deer stand that had had done it twice, he was like, I'd a hundred percent say that's accurate. It's all the things you need to talk about that you refuse to talk about.
Mm-hmm. Or think about even. There's no like, hiding it. And they say that in the documentary. He's like, you know, I want to talk about these things, but over here, these cobwebs, we've got this, this chest of things you don't really wanna look at. And it rips the lid off that thing and there's no, no running away from it, and you're stuck with it for 12 hours.
So I think, you know, that's what it equates to. Three hours of talk therapy with someone you really trust and have a relationship with, and you get to that point or 12 hours. Mm-hmm. And there's no running from it. You're riding it. [00:28:00] Yeah. Which, you know, when you describe it that way, it's sounds like a very SF solution.
Oh, no doubt about it. It's, it's a, it is definitely Rangers, seals, green Berets, marsoc, you name it. If, if you're a like, high performing professional, it's, it's like jumping out of an airplane. It's full commit. Let's take a quick break here and hear from our sponsors.
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And again, wanna make sure that we pause and celebrate these seals that did all the things required, even the backend business stuff to get this on Netflix. I mean, they're committed. Yeah. Um. I wanna celebrate them and actually thank them for their efforts. But there are some dangers here, and I think if we were to get in a conversation with them, they would say, [00:30:00] yeah, absolutely.
I mean, the danger is you go down to Mexico, have a trip, come back, and all your environmental cues are exactly the same. Yeah. Uh, but I think the danger in the solution is it feels compressed and it feels kind of comprehensive. Let's go back to the documentary where the guy's talking about. His dad exploding, running out into the backyard and destroying the lawnmower.
I can tell you my experience, um, in my development and journey as a man, that type of memory is one of a hundred that fall into that same bucket, right? So if I'm only thinking about, which I'm not saying this guy is, I'm just saying there's a lot of guys out there that would go do ibogaine. They're like, I've got that lawnmower memory, or I've got the memory of the guy that died on the.
On the deployment rather than me. And now that I understand that differently, we're good. Mm-hmm. But there's probably a hundred other things that fall under that category that actually need to be discussed. And I am kind of setting you up a bit here to talk [00:31:00] about just what your current emphasis in your life is of helping men pursue a more comprehensive strategy than going to talk.
To a guy for an hour once a week going down to Mexico. Right. Or getting some just shit hot career after the military. That gives him a sense of purpose. It's gotta be bigger than that. That's part of the deficit you and I are both feeling watching this documentary is it can't just be one silver bullet solution.
Yeah. And, and my guy in the deer stand, uh, we can revert back to him. He told me that on his second. You know, you saying that there's probably multiple things in the bucket. Um. He said on his second trip down there, it was totally different. It was a new problem set. That wasn't, he had internalized that he was dealing with on the second time.
He was like nothing, like the first time. Completely different, completely different things I was dealing with and having to confront. So you're right, I, I think there are multiple things that need to be there [00:32:00] that need to be dealt with rather. Um, and that's, you know, I guess if we're leading into what we're doing now, that that's kind of, you know what, for me, going through therapy for.
Three years and being around the guys and trying to create a culture that is healthier, talking about quality and longevity of life. Mm-hmm. There has to be, as a medic, there has to be like follow on care. There has to be a continuation of care for guys. It can't just be, um, you know, if I, if I staple you up, if we go really rudimentary and you've got a laceration and I stitch you up or whatever, and I just say, you're good.
That that's. That's not really good, right? I should come back and change your, looks good. Yeah, it looks good at first, but uh, if I don't come back and change the bandage or make sure that you're getting the right antibiotics and all the things and wash it and eventually take the sutures out, like.
There's this whole follow on [00:33:00] care that, no, it's like doing physical therapy for an injury. If you don't go do physical therapy after surgery, it still isn't there. Mm-hmm. So my, you know, my question is, or my thought process is, I think Iboga is awesome. I think that, you know, psilocybin and ketamine, they all have their place.
I just wonder. If there is a place for continued care through like community, having a place that has community and education on how, how to live a healthier life going forward. Mm-hmm. Or if you don't go do those things and you just wanna start today, um, like, I wanna go get my labs drawn and start there for fixing myself and fixing my family and learning about.
You know, exploring faith and then exploring how to come home essentially, because they didn't really teach you how to come home. You're just taught how to go to war. Mm-hmm. And do, do that real good. The, the coming home part is part of the follow on care. [00:34:00] So that, that's kind of our mission at Holos.
Mm-hmm. Is, is hopefully in service keeping you healthy and creating a culture of wellness and caring about each other in that form. And then also after you hang up the job. 'cause like we said earlier, the uniform comes off, the team goes away, you hang it up, it's just a job. It's not everything. Yeah. Um, so what kind of quality of life do you have after and what kind of habits have you created that will sustain wellness throughout?
How do we all flow those things that are deeper inside of you? Um. I hope that answers the question. I think it does. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, what we're struggling with in this episode today, uh, it's impossible to make something this complex. A straight line. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And everything is every.
Problem set is specific to the soldier. Yeah. There are things that are shared, obviously, but how it's working [00:35:00] out in the soldier's life completely different. Yeah. And that relational component is such a big deal. I, I love the fact that you're bringing up community and obviously am, uh, completely in support of what you're building with Holos.
I think it's, I think it's incredible and it brings to light the fact that. Everything that we look into, going all the way back to the, one of the beginning episodes, uh, with Dr. Free and he's talking about the Stella Ganglion block. And yeah, you know, there, there are all sorts of ways to get into this problem, to navigate into this problem.
And, you know, some guys are gonna be so broken off, they're like, I'll sit in a room and talk to anybody that'll listen to me. You know, and there, there other guys are like. Hell no. I'm not talking to anybody. I'd rather do psychedelics. Right? Yeah. And there, there are other guys like, no, I don't wanna do any of that stuff.
But what I would like to do is start working on repairing my body. Yeah. Now that I realize actually what's happened, hitting the ground 5,000 times. Yeah. Right. In, in an awkward way. Um. I think what we're saying here today is great. Good on you. Like find a way [00:36:00] to get started. Absolutely. But don't use your entry point as a solution.
Yeah. You know what I, what I wish that I could convey, and I want to get to what you want to convey here as we wrap the episode in a minute, but. What I wish I could convey to guys, uh, that I'm sitting with is that the same internal mechanisms that allowed you to be one of the most disciplined human beings on earth as a warrior and a fighter, those things are still in you.
Mm-hmm. It feels like in this new domain they don't apply, but that. Absolute bullshit. They do apply. Yeah. That man that approached that really difficult thing to become this elite thing, you can point that at all these new problem sets. There's just no cadre there right now trying to help you figure out how to do that.
And there's no three ring binder. What we're saying here together today is we should have a three ring binder. Yeah, there, there should be options. There should be a glide pass set for a man. This isn't new. This [00:37:00] is what's so frustrating for me is that these problems aren't new. We've known about these problems.
Mm-hmm. We've been trying to solve 'em, uh, in machines on basis somewhere, or with pharmaceuticals because that's where all the money is. Um, that's where a lot of the political power and conversation is centered around. Doesn't work. It's never going to work. Right? Mm-hmm. Just, just helping a guy sleep a little bit better through Ambien.
And I wanna say this as clearly as I can for whoever's listening, because we're talking with politicians actually a lot these days, thankfully, as, as a nonprofit, throwing a man, uh, Ambien is not a solution. And nobody should feel good about that. No, that's treating the symptom, man. Yeah, that's, that's all that is.
That's right. That's like taking Tylenol for your headache, but what caused the headache? What caused the headache? Yeah. And so we have. A really clear handle on what the problem is, and we need to start solving these problems by frontloading. Letting a man know, Hey, your blast wave exposure is gonna lead you [00:38:00] to some short-term memory loss.
Um, your. Being in theater is gonna cause some things in the back of your mind. In fact, probably a lot of your life that led you to be attracted to this type of work in the first place. Mm-hmm. Set you up for, for some things that are gonna get complicated once you stop doing this job. I mean, those are just honest statements.
We need to start telling men and it doesn't mean don't become a Navy Seal, don't become a Green Beret. Good Lord, we need as many of those men in our society as possible, right? But we should be resourcing them in a way that doesn't make sense for the bureaucracy. It doesn't get elitist in the northern part of our country, very, very rich through selling pharmaceuticals.
It's actually helping men. That's what I wish I could tell these guys is, Hey, there's some things coming. Right. Yeah. And I want you to be ready for those things and here are the preferred solutions for these things and we'll get you there. Yeah. Uh, 'cause I don't want Green Berets when they get to the end of their time in 19th and 20th, shutting that [00:39:00] part of themselves down.
Uh, going to work for, for some other guy just to get a paycheck and pulling off of the va. And like I got my 25, 26 acres. I'm just gonna be good. Yeah. 'cause you know, then my sons that are coming along at, at 15 and 18 don't get the benefit of men like you in society. Shaping that society to be what it needs to be.
That's, that's my vision. So, yeah. I guess part of the question I'm answering for myself and then want to throw to you is, um, you know, what do you hope after people view this documentary, which is just really well done, what do you hope they take away? Whether they're a service member or a civilian, like what do you hope they're saying afterwards?
I hope, uh, if you're a service member that. You realize you're not alone in these feelings or whatever it is that you're going through, it's not unique to you. Um, I even, I even see this talking to veterans. You know, when you start talking to a veteran [00:40:00] who's about to do their claim and you start asking them questions about like, um.
You know, is your stomach messed up? Do you have indigestion? Do you have headaches? And they're like, yeah, I do. But I thought that was all just me ever fall over in the shower. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, know, man, that's literally everybody. Mm-hmm. Everybody that's not normal. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. So when, when I say alone, I mean you're not alone in all of it.
And then, you know, if for civilian population is really just knowing that these dudes are not broken, they're not. To be, it's nothing to be ashamed of or whatever, be being, um, I guess empathetic, just having understanding, like educate yourself also on what that looks like. Mm-hmm. For them. That it doesn't mean these dudes aren't heroes, these dudes aren't men.
You know what I'm all of a sudden, because you're talking about your feelings, you're not, you're emasculated or whatever. Right. Um, and that [00:41:00] they're, you know. Getting help is not a, something to look down on. Like that's just, it's just not there. Throughout our culture, inside of special operations, you know, you, you don't, you just don't ask for help.
Mm-hmm. So being, I guess if you're a civilian side. Being willing to give that help, whatever that looks like. Um, when you, when you run across these guys, that would be, that would be awesome. Yeah. There's a, there's a way isn't there to, to help guys that are always the helper. I mean, especially as a Green Beret man, it's a huge part of y'all's mission that, that most people misunderstand because we see black hawks flying and fast ropes happening.
You know, it's like, well, there's a lot more that goes into this job than just, you know, killing bad guys. Yeah. Definitely not just kinetic at all. Yeah, exactly. Great word choice there. So, you know, with that, with that being a driver is why you guys get into being a green beret outta all the choices in the first place.
How do you turn help towards that kind of man? Well, I think the first thing you have to [00:42:00] do is, as we've said already, get past the fanboy. Yeah. And to be able to say, Hey, I'm. I'm here to be a support. I'm not here for rescue and this is the language that we're using more and more inside the the nonprofit.
I'm not here to pity you or to rescue you as if you're some rescue mission of mine. Mm-hmm. I'm here to like build and support future resilience. That's what I'm looking to do. I'm looking to create redundancy, like to not have a single point of failure, to have contingency plans over your life. Because you're, you're worth that happening for, and once we get you out of this position where you feel like you're internally taking a knee, but trying to hide it from everybody, then you're gonna be able to do more good to execute, more good for society than you actually believe that you could.
Mm-hmm. There's just a way to talk about this, that, that, frankly, I feel like most nonprofits are getting wrong, uh, which is. That's a big statement, but it's my podcast so I can say it. You can say whatever you want. That's right. Uh, I think most nonprofits are like, they [00:43:00] kind of have this, this yellow ribbon idea of like, oh, we gotta move in and like just rescue these soldiers because they deserve our rescue.
And most guys that I talk to in private, that's really off putting almost nauseating. Yeah, they don't wanna be the one getting rescued. That's, that's for sure. That's the exact opposite reason they got into the work in, in the first place. Uh, you know, so this is what this nonprofit is doing and guys like you that have lived the life that are now.
You know, moving on to, to other careers, but looking back towards the population and saying, how do we design something? How do we build something that becomes another one of these avenues? The interesting part about what you're doing though, is it's not just restorative, it's preventative. It's, it's trying to solve both things at the same time.
Let's move in and, and build a new generation of guys that are looking after these things that, you know, not till Monday morning quarterback, but maybe they had to be ignored. Because we were responding to nine 11 and we just had to mobilize and get out [00:44:00] there. Yeah, that's true too. That's a valid point.
It's not the case anymore though. Right? Right. Uh, there, there's another one of those coming in the future. Hundred percent. And we wanna make sure that the formation is ready, uh, that is, that is buttoned up and understands these things. Going into theater and then coming out, uh, you're putting. The lion's share of your life's effort behind that.
It's a company you've turned polos. I wanna make sure before we close this episode that you have a chance to kind of give a, a, a commercial for that. Okay. You know, moving out because it's a solution set that you've built as a guy who's lived the life and has institutional knowledge. Um, do you want me to.
Tell 'em now. Yeah. Let's, lets do, man, let's send it. Yeah. Yeah. So ho because we have a lot of soldiers listening to this. Yeah. So Holos is a performance and wellness based company that is, you know, designed off of 20 years of service and over half of that, inside of special operations that we've been talking about.
Mm-hmm. Um, you know, I, when I started. [00:45:00] As a human performance and wellness coordinator inside a second battalion, I wanted to look at what was the most critical point of interest and it was suicide prevention. Um, but you know, guys aren't gonna call the hotline, guys don't like going to the one hour class, so let's go left.
How do we not redline and go left of that? Mm-hmm. And that would be looking at like divorce rates and addiction rates. Um. Okay, well how do we end up to that point? How do guys get there? And then you start looking at things like burnout. Well, what makes a guy burnout? And it's things like operator syndrome, which is one term that is a collection of symptoms that are all going in that create burnout in in the individuals.
So you're talking about traumatic brain injuries, physical injuries. Emotional injuries, um, it can be lack of sleep, poor diet, hormonal disruption. Like the list just keeps going on and on of all these things. And I'm like, okay, how do we [00:46:00] stop gap that? How do we fix those things? So I started teaching. Um, educating our guys on the hazards of the career essentially.
Mm-hmm. And, but it felt, it felt like I was doing them a justjust to just say, Hey, well this is the reason why your hormones are probably outta whack it, so we, to add on to that was what is the solution to it? Mm-hmm. Well, here's some, here's some things you can do. For hormone replacement therapy, go get your labs drawn.
This is what you should look for in your labs. Um, your sleep is trash. Let's do these things for sleep and give 'em practical, therapeutic or practical modalities that they could do on their own. Um, to start coming back from burnout and hopefully getting left. Uh, that turned into a one day class and then a three day class.
Now it is, um, the Holos Integrated Readiness System, which is a combination of two [00:47:00] apps. Okay. One, one is a one app that is community and education inside there. So we tried to get kind of smart with the education piece and not do just death by PowerPoint. So it's like, it's many podcasts, if you will, um, like 20 to 30 minute educational podcasts.
And then from there, um, you can jump over into the community side and talk directly to physical therapists, cognitive coach, strength and conditioning coach, nutrition coach, all in one platform. Um, so we got the education piece down. So we were back where we very first started. We're giving the information out there to people, but what do you do about it?
How, what does the application look like? So now there is holos fit. Also, which is a separate app, but if you get both together, um, Holos Fit has programming, it has individualized workouts inside of it. Nutrition. It's got a whole recipe [00:48:00] book inside there that'll do your grocery list and all that stuff for you.
And then, uh, resources. So I'd say like what makes the this app different than any other fitness app is it's, it's actually a fitness slash wellness. Slash resource app all in one place so you can, if you have an injury, there's a program built for coming back from injuries, whether it's lower extremity or upper extremity.
Then when you get over into the workouts, there's a whole playlist of workouts for stress reduction, um, physical therapy, cell physical therapy, um. Or like high intensity stuff, like any running, you know, it's all broken into those different categories. And then I think resources really sets it apart so that if you're doing the education side and you're doing the workouts and doing all these things and you realize, man, maybe I do need a.
Something more, you know, I've been learning about TBI. You can click on the resource section and get immediately connected to [00:49:00] TBI clinics or, um, the IBOGA stuff. Like you can find resources for that inside their financial help. Um, you name it, addiction couples therapy, couples retreats. There's direct links inside there to take you to vetted organizations that we know or have used ourselves, um, to get the help you need for a better.
Again, it all goes back to quality and longevity of lives. Trying to save guys, save their lives, their careers, their families, all of it. Man, it's, I can tell you, like going back, walking into your office at the unit when you were sitting in that HPW slot, which is where, you know, thank God we've built our friendship.
It's, it's been iterative, you, right? Uh, but you had all these domains listed out on a whiteboard and you like. You're just trying to figure out how to solve this problem and to watch over the years that it's like translated into this thing that's digitally based that, you know, from, from my [00:50:00] point of view as a nonprofit executive, helps solve the fact that these guys are not co-located, right?
So if, if we do a brick and mortar solution, then. How many people is that actually gonna reach for how many millions of dollars that are spent in that direction? And you cracking the code to say, let's take this digital, let's put this on a guy's phone, let's make it available to him at all times, and then try to connect those guys.
Uh, I know when we were both running those HPW roads, it was, um, how does this guy who knows about hormone replacement. Therapy over here in Montana actually get that information to a guy over here in Maryland or in Tampa and getting all that solved through digital means, uh, I'm excited about that solution being available.
And I think it's, it's us being able to say on this episode that, of course iga, we're not here to say ICA is the enemy. No, not at all. But it's a tool in the toolbox similar to what you've built. Yep. Is a tool in the toolbox. Right. [00:51:00] I agree, one that you think is gonna be very effective. I, I do think so. Um, it, it actually has proven to be pretty effective.
Um, in the first year that we were doing this, even without the apps, you know, I think we had over 600, um, counseling sessions, put multiple guys into addiction, rehab, um, couples therapy, financial crisis, all the things. And then by year three. All of that had pretty much subsided and I think the biggest. Uh, the biggest indicator of success to me is emails and texts that I've received over the years that say, Hey man, I, I, uh, I I wanted to make an attempt on my life.
Mm-hmm. And you're, you coming and talking and helping me see that through. This is the reason I'm still here today. Um, or my marriage was gonna fall apart. We were at our wits end, didn't know what to do, and I started taking care of [00:52:00] myself and, and. We're still together today. Um, so those kind of, those kind of things to me make it worth it to keep going.
And if a guy wants to go do ibogaine or ketamine or psilocybin, you name it. Mm-hmm. Um, and they're looking for something afterwards to be reconnected in community and continue learning and continue applying wellness and health to their life, I think we have a really solid platform that does that. Well, I can tell you this nonprofit stands a hundred percent behind that effort and is actually very proud to be able to be some of that backend support that you're talking about, uh, financially and linking guys in with people who know how to talk appropriately.
Yeah. To Special forces operators. Uh, so we're, we're certainly behind it a hundred percent and I'm very grateful that you take time. Anytime I ask you to sit behind these microphones and have these really important conversations. So let's talk directly for the soldiers. We wrap to the soldiers we wrap.
Um, if they're looking for more [00:53:00] information about how to hook into these holo resources, what's step one? Man. I think the easiest way in today's culture is on Instagram. Uh, Instagram or Facebook. Facebook is just Holos, H-O-L-O-S, and then on Instagram is holos training. And then obviously the website is www dot holos, H-O-L-O-S training.
And you can, you can pretty much get. All of those platforms from there as well. Yeah. Well, Jordan, thanks for the time today. Thanks for contributing, um, especially so heavily personally to this conversation about this documentary. If you haven't seen the documentary in Waves and War, you can find it on Netflix, especially right now.
It's gonna be at the top of the search list. Yeah. If you haven't seen it yet, we would highly encourage you to take some time, a couple hours out of your day. Check that out, and then if it does light off something in you as you're watching it, please reach out to us. Uh, at the Soldier Fund. You can [00:54:00] do that through our Contact Us section of our website at the Soldier Fund.
That's Soldier singular. The soldier fund.org. Reach out to us there. We would love to start a conversation with you about that. Thank you for tuning in to the Soldier Fund podcast. If you're inspired by the stories of these elite citizen warriors and want to support their mission, visit us@thesoldierfund.org.
Your contributions help us to continue to back the Special Forces soldiers of the National Guard as they fight around the world. Until next time, stay committed to stand with those who serve.